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Hull Trains 180 problems again

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Andy Pacer

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Hull Trains 1H05 has come to a stand north of Retford, passengers tweeting that 'the engine has exploded' and 'carriages filling with smoke'...

Quite a queue forming in both directions.

Interestingly Grand Central 1D93 after a while sat on platform 3 at Newark has taken the diversionary route via Swinderby and Gainsborough.
 
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jimm

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If the set is out again today, it sounds could have just been something overheating and triggering the fire suppression system, which I can attest from experience on an FGW 180 a dozen or so years ago does give the impression that smoke is pouring out from under the train.

The coach affected was evacuated and after an inspection by the driver and local firefighters who had been summoned to assist, we went forward on four engines before being terminated at the next station that had a siding to move the train out of the way of the following service. The 180 was then sent straight back to Old Oak Common.
 

HullRailMan

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I’ve heard the unit from yesterday is out for about a month with a major engine failure.
Apparently the unit that has failed today is also due to a fire alarm. Oh dear!
That jut leaves one 180 and the HST in service today.
 

Bletchleyite

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I’ve heard the unit from yesterday is out for about a month with a major engine failure.
Apparently the unit that has failed today is also due to a fire alarm. Oh dear!
That jut leaves one 180 and the HST in service today.

And EMT want to take this garbage on? The lot of the Coradia units need to go straight to scrap.
 

700007

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Near a bunch of sheds that aren't 66s.
EMT don't want to take them on. EMR do. They are two very, very different companies.
Yes, one with what appears to be common sense and another one who is going to risk it for a biscuit. It's such a shame because they're nice trains passenger wise. Very comfortable, good layout and they're very stylish. Shame they have the engines from hell. Surely Alstom could take the design of this and try reinvent it with a new, more environmentally friendly and reliable engine?
 

43096

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Yes, one with what appears to be common sense and another one who is going to risk it for a biscuit. It's such a shame because they're nice trains passenger wise. Very comfortable, good layout and they're very stylish. Shame they have the engines from hell. Surely Alstom could take the design of this and try reinvent it with a new, more environmentally friendly and reliable engine?
It's not the engines themselves that are the issue with the 180; they are, after all, the same Cummins QSK19s that are found under Classes 185/220/221/222 and they seem fine. The 180 problem is the design of the equipment layout underneath with how they are placed and how other equipment, pipework, cabling etc is placed and routed.
 

LordCreed

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Yesterdays issue was a coolant leak, causing the smoke. No actual fire.

The issue today was dragging brakes, which set off the fire alarm.

Not the best couple of days for HT!
 

Clarence Yard

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It's not the engines themselves that are the issue with the 180; they are, after all, the same Cummins QSK19s that are found under Classes 185/220/221/222 and they seem fine. The 180 problem is the design of the equipment layout underneath with how they are placed and how other equipment, pipework, cabling etc is placed and routed.

There is an issue with the QSK19 and that is the stress on the crankshaft. With hydraulic drive you need to have an exact set up with all shaft wear within manufacturers tolerances. If you don’t get it right you are in danger of the engine going bang as a result. Regular and proper greasing is also key so when you test for play, you don’t get deceived (by old packed grease) into thinking everything is o.k.

East Midlands are going to have real fun with these units!
 

37057

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There is an issue with the QSK19 and that is the stress on the crankshaft. With hydraulic drive you need to have an exact set up with all shaft wear within manufacturers tolerances. If you don’t get it right you are in danger of the engine going bang as a result. Regular and proper greasing is also key so when you test for play, you don’t get deceived (by old packed grease) into thinking everything is o.k.

East Midlands are going to have real fun with these units!

I'm struggling to understand what you mean regarding shaft stress and wear - engine crankshaft or cardan shafts?

Sounds like it's not an engine issue if the maintenance on the Voith supplied equipment isn't being carried out correctly.
 

Mitchell Hurd

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And EMT want to take this garbage on? The lot of the Coradia units need to go straight to scrap.

I'd never thought I'd say but I'm not happy about unreliable 180's replacing HST's - the DfT obviously is so obsessed with modern this modern that and the DDA business that they obviously don't care that 180's on EMR services is asking for trouble when HST's will soldier on til 2022!
 

Clarence Yard

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I'm struggling to understand what you mean regarding shaft stress and wear - engine crankshaft or cardan shafts?

Sounds like it's not an engine issue if the maintenance on the Voith supplied equipment isn't being carried out correctly.

Cardan shafts. The crankshaft on the QSK19 has come into question before but the stress caused by a badly aligned or worn cardan shaft increases catastrophic engine failure risk considerably.
 

samuelmorris

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The 180s are, to my knowledge, the only 125mph hydraulic DMUs in the country - there's probably a good reason for that. Clearly the QSK19 isn't directly the issue as, even though these engines seem to have fairly negative press in every unit they're fitted to, 185s and 22x units don't suffer these continuous incidents. On that basis, fitting different engines to them probably isn't practical, they'd need a fairly major rework. DMUs typically lead shorter lives than EMUs anyway, and by the time something could be drafted in to replace them, they'd be very near end of life anyway. As I understand it EMR are using them as a stopgap before the HSTs are replaced with new build high-speed units? In which case if they show the same level of reliability on EMR as all their previous operators (and I see no reason why not), EMR will want to make sure they order enough new units to replace them all.

All that said, is it just me or does it seem like Hull Trains have a considerably worse time with their units than Grand Central? Given GC have twice as many it would seem like you should hear them having twice as many issues, but if anything, anecdotally at least, the opposite seems to be true.
 

darloscott

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All that said, is it just me or does it seem like Hull Trains have a considerably worse time with their units than Grand Central? Given GC have twice as many it would seem like you should hear them having twice as many issues, but if anything, anecdotally at least, the opposite seems to be true.
I'm wondering how much of this is down to how HT are perenially short and whether maintenance times are getting squeezed whereas the GC units have more slack and downtime isn't getting squeezed to ensure service is made?
 

Ben Bow

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The Cummins QSK19 is the bane of the 185 fleet too. Many units run around with one of the three engines isolated, but they can mostly keep to the schedules even on two engines (York to Newcastle is a struggle on two) so perhaps it isn't as noticeable. As told by a senior engineer at TPE, the QSK19 doesn't like being on its side as in the 185's etc.
 

F Great Eastern

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The Cummins QSK19 is the bane of the 185 fleet too. Many units run around with one of the three engines isolated, but they can mostly keep to the schedules even on two engines (York to Newcastle is a struggle on two) so perhaps it isn't as noticeable. As told by a senior engineer at TPE, the QSK19 doesn't like being on its side as in the 185's etc.

Yet the 185s are still the most reliable modern DMU by a fair margin and have been so for a number of year now and the 180 has been by far the most unreliable DMU so it's got a lot more to do with it than the engines.
 

37057

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The Cummins QSK19 is the bane of the 185 fleet too. Many units run around with one of the three engines isolated, but they can mostly keep to the schedules even on two engines (York to Newcastle is a struggle on two) so perhaps it isn't as noticeable. As told by a senior engineer at TPE, the QSK19 doesn't like being on its side as in the 185's etc.

It's not always the actual engine at fault though. There are lots of reasons for the 24v PUI to be tripped. For example, a crack in the coolant header tank sight glass will require it to be isolated until it's stopped overnight at a depot - it can be that simple. Or if a fuel filter becomes damaged and draws air in. The engine will hunt, run away, probably shut down and not fire again, but it's a filter, not the engine itself.

I wouldn't say that being horizontal is the issue, but being bolted to the underframe of a 100mph train is quite a harsh environment. Not just for the engine, but for the radiators, hoses, wiring etc. That's when a loco/HST power car has the advantage - and you can repair it on the go!
 
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Ben Bow

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To quote a recent TPE update
"In particular, the QSK19 engine under each vehicle continues to require huge amounts of TLC to keep it running, and our colleagues at Ardwick depot are running around like men and women possessed trying to keep on top of leaks, wheezes and other interesting symptoms that the engine presents to us."
 

TheWalrus

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In regards to the 180s would they be better on less strenuous work, more local or interurban services? How did they perform on these type of services during their short time with Northern?
 
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