Hull Trains cancellations due to acute shortage of available rolling stock

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by humbersidejim, 12 Oct 2018.

  1. humbersidejim

    humbersidejim Member

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    It's been a terrible week for open access operator Hull Trains.

    Today, it appears their last working class 180 unit, which was running a limited shuttle between Hull and Doncaster, failed.

    There will be no Hull Trains services at all tomorrow:

    https://www.hulltrains.co.uk/service-alterations-october/

    What is the current state of play with their fleet, and how long can this situation continue - both financially and politically?
     
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  3. westv

    westv Established Member

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    I'm becoming doubtful that my Monday morning service will now run.
     
  4. TUC

    TUC Established Member

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    I come back to the fact that there must be serious questions as to the quality of maintainance work carried out on this fleet. I smell expensive legal procedings being possible..
     
  5. superalbs

    superalbs Established Member

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    Are they not maintained by Bombardier at Crofton?
     
  6. Clarence Yard

    Clarence Yard Member

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    Correct, it appears they are not being maintained by Bombardier at Crofton.

    However, Bombardier are being paid by HT to maintain them at Crofton.

    It’s going to be quite a claim against them if this shambles continues.
     
  7. Iskra

    Iskra Established Member

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    Why have they suddenly become so problematic? They've been okay for years?
     
  8. Polarbear

    Polarbear Established Member

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    180's are great from a passenger perspective, (in my opinion), but a real dogs dinner under the floor panels! Poor design is the route cause of many of the woes of the class. They ain't the most reliable train on the planet I'm afraid.

    Hopefully, HT can start to get the 180's back into service over the course of the next few days, though I understand that it's going to be a while until they have all four sets available for use.
     
  9. basfordlad

    basfordlad Member

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    They have some crap ticket acceptance for the weekend!!!!having to use GTR from Peterborough and then buses/taxis.
    LNER have told them where to go because it's a weekend
     
  10. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Makes you appreciate just how reliable Voyagers are in comparison - a much bigger fleet yet the fourteen 180s seem to fail more often.

    When are the 802s due for HT? (if there's still a HT in operation by then...)
     
  11. Tim R-T-C

    Tim R-T-C Established Member

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    If HT don't run any services on a day, do they lose out on that day's ticket allocation for all open tickets?

    Is that how fare allocation works?
     
  12. Chester1

    Chester1 Established Member

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    In time for May 2020 timetable change. First has the money to fund HT until then and it should be profitable from then until the end of the access agreement in December 2029, with a good chance another agreement.
     
  13. syorksdeano

    syorksdeano Member

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    It would seem that LNER staff are not happy with certain Hull Trains customers

    https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/new...ws/lner-staffs-shocking-rant-hull-2103633.amp

     
  14. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Cheers for confirming - I guess that's not long now (I remember when 2020 felt like *ages* away, now it's just four timetable changes).

    I don't know what (rolling stock) options there are for HT in the short term though; I'm sure someone on here will suggest something creative though...
     
  15. Tim R-T-C

    Tim R-T-C Established Member

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    One staff member makes mildly profain comment... what a world we live in... *shaking head emoji*
    Alert all of the papers!

    Seriously, I bet LNER staff have had a lot of work this week with HT passengers demanding to be carried and their own passengers being affected by busier than normal services.
     
  16. Clarence Yard

    Clarence Yard Member

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    No - that allocation is for a timetable period but as there are now hardly any open tickets sold on the main ECML flows, that’s probably not the important issue.

    There are established industry practises that occur in these circumstances. These apply between operators, whether they are OA or Franchised.

    Firstly there is the money that has to transfer when you carry somebody else’s passengers. Sometimes there is a pre agreed fee, sometimes you look at industry systems such as MOIRA and negotiate. But money has to change hands. It can’t be punitive, it can’t exploit (that gets you the ORR on your back) but it must be fair.

    Secondly there is any additional staff costs that you incur. Not existing costs (because of cross subsidy issues) but you can’t expect another operator to put extra staff on the ground and not pay for them.

    Finally you have to look at all those inter available flows and put a claim in for their allocation for the affected days. You have to be careful you are not double counting through your initial fee for carrying their passengers and you may decide the value in the claim is not worth the effort if you have already covered it off in your negotiated fee.

    The effect on Hull Trains business of all this will be huge. Their revenue will largely be going to LNER but their costs, apart from the actual unit running costs, will still have to be paid. How long FG can sustain this is unknown but they need to get back to at least a two unit service by the end of next week.
     
  17. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

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    There was no shortage of Voyagers running around with some dead engines in their early years, and fortunately they’ve got a purpose built Home Depot
     
  18. Bungle965

    Bungle965 Established Member

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    I think okay is stretching it a bit, they were still having more than their fair share of problems. Before this Grand Central were in a spot of bother with their 180s as well.
    Sam
     
  19. jonhewes

    jonhewes Member

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    Apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere ; why did Hull Trains give up their Pioneers? Even back then, the 22x family had an established track record of being reliable trains.
     
  20. SC43090

    SC43090 Member

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    At the August Bank Holiday grand central hired in a rake of MK2 coaches class 67 locos ..... Hull trains had coaches on stand by at Doncaster all Bank Holiday weekend due to LNER carrying West Coast passengers due to Euston been closed also the end of Edinburgh Festival....

    A number of years ago when Hull trains had problems with its units they hired class 86 & MK2 coaches that worked Doncaster KX Doncaster with a unit going Hull Doncaster Hull.....

    Could Hull trains hire one of the off lease HSTs that are currently been stored at Ely Papworth sidings as its a short term problem with Hull trains 180s.... With the refurbishment of the HST running late...... If that's not possible they should look into hiring a electric locomotive & coaches again

    SC43090
     
  21. Carlisle

    Carlisle Established Member

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    I believe a mutual agreement was reached to transfer them to EMT, to allow them a uniform fleet when they needed extra stock to run the new Corby services
     
  22. Bungle965

    Bungle965 Established Member

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    Increase in capacity being one reason, 180s are 5 carriages whereas the 222s were only 4.
    Sam
     
  23. NoOnesFool

    NoOnesFool Member

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    Makes you realise how good the 220/221/222s are in comparison, for vehicles of a similar age. HT control room must be VERY stressful at the moment!
     
  24. cactustwirly

    cactustwirly Established Member

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    There aren't any off-lease HSTs, they're all ScotRail sets AFAIK.
     
  25. Starmill

    Starmill Veteran Member

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    2240 departure from Peterborough? That seems... terribly late, no?
     
  26. Ih8earlies

    Ih8earlies Member

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    As far as I am aware, Hull Trains share the same Control as TPE in Manchester. Stressed probably doesn't do it justice.
     
  27. humbersidejim

    humbersidejim Member

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    That's going to be an arrival in to Hull at around 0040 at absolute best. The timetabled arrival is 2220.

    I bet most passengers don't realise delay repay still applies. If everyone who was entitled to comp actually claimed, HT would be completely swamped (though they probably are already).

    More seriously, that kind of travel experience is going to put off all but the hardiest of discretionary passengers.
     
    Last edited: 13 Oct 2018
  28. ACBest

    ACBest Member

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    Is it not also almost an hours wait between arrival of the GTR service and departure on the coach at Peterborough?
     
  29. TUC

    TUC Established Member

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    It's difficult to escape the conclusion thst LNER are being peverse and unhelpful in this case. I just checked and they are still selling Advances for tonight's 2000 and 2003 from KX-Peterborough for £23-£29 so it seems unlikely they are too full to carry HT passengers.
     
  30. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

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    Then the HT passengers can buy those advances, then they can board. This has gone beyond previous reciprocal agreements to carry passengers now, HT are just expecting everyone to pick up the pieces from their mess.

    The news article about LNER staff not being particularly happy with HT staff seems about right as well, if what I heard yesterday is true anyway. Several times over the course of the week HT passengers have tried to board LNER services despite being advised not to so and with a strong sense of self entitlement. One particular first class passenger has become fairly well known to staff after trying it at least twice and making all sorts of silly legal threats against staff when told they couldn't travel.
     
  31. humbersidejim

    humbersidejim Member

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    I really do feel for the poor rail staff of both TOCs, caught in the middle of this sorry saga.
     

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