Hull Trains cancellations due to chronic shortage of available rolling stock

[Mugby]

Meanwhile, as this carries on, day after day, week after week, Grand Central's 180s ply up and down the east coast every day and you don't hear of persistent failures and cancellations, at least not on the scale of Hull Trains woes.

There's something fundamentally wrong here, the general consensus (on here anyway) is that the 180s are the problem but any unit will only be as good as the maintenance it receives. If one operator can keep their trains running, why can't another (who is in quite close proximity) do the same?

 

[DoubleO]

GCs 180s are also maintained at Crofton (although heavy maint is done at Heaton), but they have 10 sets, 8 should be available at any one time, and 7 are required for their service. So not only do they usually have a hot spare, there is also much less impact to their service when they do have a failure. HT have basically planned a timetable that is too intensive for the trains they have at their disposal, and they have no contingency.

 

[HullRailMan]

GC have had cancellations on several days over the last few weeks due to train failures. If they need 7 units for a full service that means they have 6 or less if cancellations are in place. That puts unit availability at 50-60% which lends itself to the idea that the 180s are the issue for both companies.

HT should have taken on at least 1 extra unit when they came off lease from GWR but chose not to. The MD that made that decision has now gone but the problem is left.

 

[robbeech]

When I run out of equipment for a tour I can hire in the same equipment from several places. From some places it will be in poor condition and it’s clear it is not maintained very well. It can even be unreliable and may cause issues through the show. From other places it’s very well maintained and causes no issues. It’s the same equipment though.


If we take the finite number of parts on a train. We narrow it down to the number of parts that if they fail can take a train immediately out of service. If we then narrow that down again to those that having taken the train out of service take weeks to fix, how many parts are we down to? I’m going to guess not many. And I’m guessing (and it is only a guess so anyone that knows please do say so as I’m very interested to learn) that during their life there aren’t many of this narrowed down list of parts that haven’t gone wrong before.

Why then does it take HT weeks to fix a train and GC who DO have issues seem to have that one back in service a couple of days later?

 

[robbeech]

GC have had cancellations on several days over the last few weeks due to train failures. If they need 7 units for a full service that means they have 6 or less if cancellations are in place. That puts unit availability at 50-60% which lends itself to the idea that the 180s are the issue for both companies.

HT should have taken on at least 1 extra unit when they came off lease from GWR but chose not to. The MD that made that decision has now gone but the problem is left.

It doesn’t put them at 50-60%, as we have established that 2 will be in planned Maintenance.

A cancellation does t necessarily mean they are down to 6 either, if a service fails mid journey south and it has to be cancelled there is unlikely to be sufficient time to get the spare down to it so the return working is also cancelled. This doesn’t mean that they are down to 50% of their trains. The hot spare will take over after this.

The same happened last week on HT with a minor fault meaning the 1233 and 1548 were cancelled but it was fixed and ran the next services it was booked for. Had they had a hot spare they’d have been able to use it but they don’t!

 

[HullRailMan]

It's an interesting question you pose about why it seems to take HT longer to get a unit fixed than GC. On the face of it the maintainence is subcontracted to the same people at the same depot so they should get the same service or is there something more conplicated going on behind the scenes?

 

[robbeech]

Well this topic has gone backwards and forwards between suggesting they’re maintained at the same place to being maintained at different places so I don’t know which is correct.
But the fact is that a problem that they seem to think will be fixed in 1 day, takes 2 days, then when they expect it to take 2 days it actually takes 3 days and so on. But the day to day chasing is covering up the simple fact that they said it would only be out of service for 1 days and it’s been 7 or 8 and counting.

If they’re maintained at these placeby the same people then there’s something going on that we should know about.

I put this to the people reading, if for some reason they’re not fixing the faults properly on HT units, what else aren’t they doing ?


All this discussion is about why HT can’t get 3 trains working. We haven’t even looked at where the 4th one is!!!

 

[IanXC]

It's worth pointing out that the services the GC sets work are much less demanding than the HT sets. Fast from York or Doncaster to Kings Cross, and tootling around local lines north of that, doesn't compare to multiple stops to 125mph that HT sets do.

 

[robbeech]

It's worth pointing out that the services the GC sets work are much less demanding than the HT sets. Fast from York or Doncaster to Kings Cross, and tootling around local lines north of that, doesn't compare to multiple stops to 125mph that HT sets do.

I suppose this will make a difference. You’re quite right. Though one would hope that they’d be able to cope with it as that’s what they were designed to do, they’re not exactly old (in relative terms)

 

[DoubleO]

That's probably incorrect actually, as the two GC routes are longer in distance (especially the Sunderland service) and the Bradford route covers more gradients which work the trains hard. The point is that a lot of GCs diagrams only feature one return trip a day per set, whereas (I think) HT sets all work multiple trips, and as previously pointed out they have no spare.

 

[philthetube]

normally with a large fleet of the same stock any frequent fail points would be re-designed and modded away (I know that could be phrased better but I can't thin how ) With a small fleet this becomes much more expensive per unit to do and therefore less likely to happen.

 

[DoubleO]

normally with a large fleet of the same stock any frequent fail points would be re-designed and modded away (I know that could be phrased better but I can't thin how ) With a small fleet this becomes much more expensive per unit to do and therefore less likely to happen.

That's a good point, there are only 14 class 180 sets in the country, they've had a poor reputation since new and there probably is an issue with in depth engineering knowledge of them, and spares/modifications etc. I believe HT have been particularly unlucky in having a significant electrical fire on a set, but as previously highlighted their business model means this has a huge long term impact on their ability to run their planned service.

 

[DaiGog]

I Just checked for tomorrows service and the 7.27 KGX-HUL was the only cancellation. This was cancelled as I'd expected, but it looked promising that all was back and running again.

But then a few minutes later, it's back to 2 diagram operation with the usual cancellations.

If Crotons Maintenance is being proactively managed - why is the lack of units still a problem?

A test run was undertaken with 180109 late yesterday afternoon and while I don't know any details, it hasn't gone out this morning.

Proactive management doesn't make the 180s any less inherently unreliable. First Group are giving Bombardier some high-level attention and the guys at the depot are being supported on the ground where possible.

 

[DaiGog]

If this happened once you would be believable. After 5, 6, 7, 8 times customers will lose patience. They can't make the same mistake again and again, expecting it to be different and then having it happen again. It's either naivety or incompetence. It also does not happen elsewhere.

Customers will absolutely lose patience, agree with you there. Nobody is saying it's an ideal situation, but it is what it is. Messages are put out in good faith and sometimes things don't work out that way.

 

[DaiGog]

I'm outsider looking in, is this a fair summation?

Crofton maintained the 180s when they first arrived with Hull Trains, didn't they?

When maintenance was shifted to Old Oak Common, their reliability appeared to improve.
They appeared to enjoy a long relatively stable period under OOC's care, which seemed to deteriorate after they were moved back to Crofton.

Does my memory serve me correctly?

I don't know if Crofton maintained the 180s when HT first acquired them, so I'll take your word on that. It is certainly true that reliability has taken a plunge in the last 12 to 18 months or so, with a few major failures, but I won't make any allegations or speculate on the competency of that depot as the 180s are an inherently poor design. I do appreciate that it may appear to be too much of a coincidence to an outsider looking in.

 

[robbeech]

Once again they fail to acknowledge that tomorrow’s 0727 will not run as there will not be a train in London to run it. Why do they deliberately do this? If the 1912 doesn’t run the following days 0727 won’t run. So why not tell passengers at the same time as they cancel the 1912?
Why can’t they see this?
What level of incompetency is required to continually do this and not even comprehend how folly it is?

 

[DoubleO]

Yes I agree that's very poor. Just had a look and the train line is showing tickets available for the 0727.

 

[HullRailMan]

That's a fair point about the 0727 the next day. I think it points to the management being reactionary rather than being in control of events. The real shame is that the on board staff are regarding highly by passengers and are being let down by poor leadership.

As an advice, it's noticeable that the alternative plans never point out that passengers holding 'any permitted' open tickets can use any train to complete their journey. While they will be in a minority it's worth pointing out. Looks like LNER ticket acceptance isn't there today as it's EMT via Sheffield for most alternatives.

 

[robbeech]

Yes I agree that's very poor. Just had a look and the train line is showing tickets available for the 0727.

This is normal. When they cancel them they do disappear. But if they cancel them a week at a time then they only disappear day by day for reasons unknown.

 

[DaiGog]

0727 cancellation on Saturday morning going on line now. Trainline and others will sell walk-up tickets which are valid on that and other services for as long as the service remains in TRUST (I don't know the ins and outs of removing trains from that system but it is reasonable to expect that cancelled services will not show in journey planners). Train-specific tickets and reservations for the 0727 are not available and FWIW I don't think Trainline does a particularly good job of telling the customer that reserved seats are not available.

 

[robbeech]

You can still obtain an itinerary from their own website

 

[Ben Bow]

Passengers and staff at the coalface (HT and others left to pick up the pieces) are at their wits end with HT. Its time they faced reality and removed certain trains from the system altogether, until they can be sure of operating reliably. I would suggest that won't be until the 802's have entered service and settled down.

 

[robbeech]

Well, almost a full service tomorrow, I wish them luck.

 

[Failed Unit]

Passengers and staff at the coalface (HT and others left to pick up the pieces) are at their wits end with HT. Its time they faced reality and removed certain trains from the system altogether, until they can be sure of operating reliably. I would suggest that won't be until the 802's have entered service and settled down.

Yes. Having travelled on LNER services with displaced HT passengers on it, some do give the LNER staff a hard time. I have some sympathy they had a reserved seat on HT. but why should LNER passengers be put out as the HT passengers refuse to let them take their reservations. (I know it is the minority, but conflict the LNER crews could do without. )

 

[matacaster]

Does anyone have any statistical information on the causes of HT train failure?
Are they trying to fix the same recurring faults and failing or are the faults random?
Could they source a major spare component (like and engine or gearbox) that they could swap out IN A KNOWN TIME rather than trying to fix faults which always seem to take longer than anticipated?

 

[robbeech]

Yes. Having travelled on LNER services with displaced HT passengers on it, some do give the LNER staff a hard time. I have some sympathy they had a reserved seat on HT. but why should LNER passengers be put out as the HT passengers refuse to let them take their reservations. (I know it is the minority, but conflict the LNER crews could do without. )

Indeed. They have enough issues of their own without having to deal with HT passengers (you can substitute other TOCs here). There are enough issues when they get stuck behind a ht having a diesel wee without having the passengers on board

 

[robbeech]

Does anyone have any statistical information on the causes of HT train failure?
Are they trying to fix the same recurring faults and failing or are the faults random?
Could they source a major spare component (like and engine or gearbox) that they could swap out IN A KNOWN TIME rather than trying to fix faults which always seem to take longer than anticipated?

I’d love to read the maintenance logs. Not so I can complain I’m just interested, but I don’t think they’d be obliged to tell us, whether that is because they’re an open access operator or not I don’t know.

 

[greyman42]

why should LNER passengers be put out as the HT passengers refuse to let them take their reservations.

With behaviour like that it is no wonder LNER don't want HT passengers on their trains. The HT passengers are doing themselves no favours in the long run.

 

[Starmill]

1748 London KX to Beverley formed of 4 coaches instead of 5 tonight and will be fully reserved.

 

[Bungle965]

1748 London KX to Beverley formed of 4 coaches instead of 5 tonight and will be fully reserved.

Hull Trains appear to be refusing to honour people who have open tickets on this service.

17:48 London Kings Cross to Beverley due 20:40

Facilities on the 17:48 London Kings Cross to Beverley due 20:40.
Will be formed of 4 coaches instead of 5. Service full and standing. Reservations have been applied throughout.
Additional Facilities Information
Please note that due to this service being fully reserved, Seating will only be available to customers with pre booked reservations on this service.

Sam