• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Hull Trains cancellations due to chronic shortage of available rolling stock

Status
Not open for further replies.

DaiGog

Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
397
Location
Sometimes Mirfield, sometimes Hull, often Niebüll
They refuse to pay out when a single ticket is used until pushed.
They are inundated with claims at present so responses and payments are understandably taking a while to get through. If there is nothing missing or unusual about a claim then it will be dealt with as soon as they can but there are obviously a lot of them to get through at the moment.

The tone of your comment suggests that you have to routinely “push” them to get what you are entitled to, or they won’t pay out at all which is wrong.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
10,020
Location
here to eternity
I saw a Grand Central 180 working OK at York the other day - are they having any difficulties with their Class 180 fleet?
 

DaiGog

Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
397
Location
Sometimes Mirfield, sometimes Hull, often Niebüll
Once again after passengers were promised a full service (with the exception the first northbound as it is displaced) operating today and once again they’re cancelling services. Why don’t they stop with the lies and just say in advance “guys we can’t run these services” ? What makes their minds tick in such a way that they have to keep letting people down every day.
Because when the trains don’t fail they can run the service. When a unit fails, they can’t. If you think they’re telling lies in order to deliberately mislead the travelling public then you’re wrong again.
 

DaiGog

Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
397
Location
Sometimes Mirfield, sometimes Hull, often Niebüll
I also think the reason of "more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time" should be retired, as frankly, it's a half-truth, if not a total lie. Class 180s are notorious for being unreliable and frequently breaking down and subsequently needing repairs. It would be more truthful to say 'This is due to the unreliability of the rolling stock', or 'This is due to a lack of serviceable rolling stock'. If they got Grand Central's 180s, this situation wouldn't exist, would it?! I do wonder whether Hull Trains' 180s will head for the scrapheap (or perhaps the scavenge for parts heap!) after they are replaced by the 802s on Hull Trains.
It is true. It’s just another way of saying that there has been a train failure (or failures), or a shortage of serviceable trains - the meaning is the same.

GC 180s are maintained in a different location, they have more of them and they are not diagrammed as intensely. I’m not sure of any future use for the HT ones at present.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,649
The tone of your comment suggests that you have to routinely “push” them to get what you are entitled to, or they won’t pay out at all which is wrong.
I routinely have to push to get what I’m entitled to. They reject claims based on the replacement train arriving on time even though it’s 75L from the timetable. They leave people stranded and refuse to help after the last train is cancelled after a ticket is purchased then reject any claim. They refuse to provide alternative transport for people who are going to miss connections and become stranded, then reject a claim*. Their staff sent to stations to deal with their customers when they are to be put onto replacement transport sometimes go home if the bus is late, the staff when they are there refuse to provide a taxi between Doncaster and Selby if you’re on an any permitted ticket with an itinerary for the Hull trains service from King’s Cross to Selby, then when you travel via York, reject the claim because the taxis you were denied access to arrived less than 30 minutes after the train should have. They base claims on what time they expect the bus to arrive not what time it did arrive as they have no way of knowing and as mentioned before, staff have gone home so they can’t check.
Other than that though they’re pretty spot on with claims.


* out of the half a dozen times this particular thing has happened to me they have only rejected a claim 3 times, and after a reply they paid out on 2 of those 3. Only once did I really have to push and threaten TF.
 

ForTheLoveOf

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2017
Messages
6,416
It is true. It’s just another way of saying that there has been a train failure (or failures), or a shortage of serviceable trains - the meaning is the same.

GC 180s are maintained in a different location, they have more of them and they are not diagrammed as intensely. I’m not sure of any future use for the HT ones at present.
The point is - it's not more trains than usual. Based off the experience of the last few months, it's about the same number of trains as usual (and the fleet size just isn't big enough to cater for this)!
 

DaiGog

Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
397
Location
Sometimes Mirfield, sometimes Hull, often Niebüll
People just want to know where they stand. They say everyday that services will run. You can split hair over whether it’s a promise or not but the fact remains that they say they will run knowing there’s a huge likelyhood they won’t unless they are so naive that they believe that they’ve suddenly fixed the trains. And by they I mean management not the social media team they just do as they’re told.



It’s because they haven’t mended the train. I’m not suggesting that it’s been sat somewhere with nothing being done to it for 2 months but when all said and done they haven’t mended the train. And this happens to all of the trains.
I would love to see a history of the fault reports and a history of the maintenance though I suppose even a FOI request wouldn’t allow that.
See my reply above - the train was repaired, returned to service (albeit short formed) and failed with a different and unrelated fault.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,649
The point is - it's not more trains than usual. Based off the experience of the last few months, it's about the same number of trains as usual (and the fleet size just isn't big enough to cater for this)!

I don’t directly disagree with the more trains than usual remark. At the end of the day. The usual amount of trains is a set number. If more than that need repairing then they’re accurate in saying so. It’s a bit daft to suggest that because they’ve had lots of failures they should change it.

However! I do agree it could be worded better to MINIMISE the comments made suggesting the same thing.

I think respect for them would grow if they used something like “due to ongoing rolling stock issues” or similar.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,649
See my reply above - the train was repaired, returned to service (albeit short formed) and failed with a different and unrelated fault.
And the one that failed Thursday cancelling the 1233 and subsequent 1548?

And this one that was out of service for 2 months, came back to firm the 1033 Friday and failed with an unrelated fault. Ok. It happens. But that was then out back into service again, and the 1033 today is cancelled, so has that fault been fixed and another one occurred or is it a different unit? Or is it the same fault as yesterday that they didn’t fix?
 

DaiGog

Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
397
Location
Sometimes Mirfield, sometimes Hull, often Niebüll
I don’t directly disagree with the more trains than usual remark. At the end of the day. The usual amount of trains is a set number. If more than that need repairing then they’re accurate in saying so. It’s a bit daft to suggest that because they’ve had lots of failures they should change it.

However! I do agree it could be worded better to MINIMISE the comments made suggesting the same thing.

I think respect for them would grow if they used something like “due to ongoing rolling stock issues” or similar.
Fair comment. I suspect the issue (from a company’s perspective) with using words like ‘ongoing’ is that it draws attention to the issues from people who otherwise wouldn’t read any more into it.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,649
Fair comment. I suspect the issue (from a company’s perspective) with using words like ‘ongoing’ is that it draws attention to the issues from people who otherwise wouldn’t read any more into it.
It’s a tricky one. I agree only draws attention to those who don’t know, but it likely gains respect from those that do know.
 

Ben Bow

Member
Joined
20 Sep 2018
Messages
342
Splitting hairs over the exact wording on their website is somewhat missing the point. The fact is that over the last few months they have failed to provide the advertised service on an ongoing and regular basis, for whatever reason,. I'm sure that your average HT passenger who is faced with a 2-3 hour delay, which may include a bus for all or part of their journey, isn't really interested in the detail. Since HT seem content to bungle their way through it, its time that the ORR took an interest an threatened HT with a loss of paths on the ECML if they cannot show that they can restore their service to a semblance of reliability. Match the paths to what can realistically be provided with a fleet of 4 180's, since clearly their current service can't. I am quite sure that would focus a few minds at a senior level in HT and First Group....
 

DaiGog

Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
397
Location
Sometimes Mirfield, sometimes Hull, often Niebüll
And the one that failed Thursday cancelling the 1233 and subsequent 1548?

And this one that was out of service for 2 months, came back to firm the 1033 Friday and failed with an unrelated fault. Ok. It happens. But that was then out back into service again, and the 1033 today is cancelled, so has that fault been fixed and another one occurred or is it a different unit? Or is it the same fault as yesterday that they didn’t fix?
The one which failed on Thursday missed one return trip and was a minor fault. I’m not sure which unit has gone down today, or what’s wrong with it.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,649
The one which failed on Thursday missed one return trip and was a minor fault. I’m not sure which unit has gone down today, or what’s wrong with it.
But that one return trip would have had hundreds of passengers on it. It would have had a good amount more that delayed their journey from the 1033 or 1348 as they were also cancelled. It may have had a few other passengers from the 1709 that they started short or the 1912 that was cancelled but this is unlikely to be significant.
To then turn the last southbound (that wasn’t cancelled) round at Peterborough as it was running 70L and get people home 3 hours late just really grates on passengers. Given the suggestion above that the signal box closes after the Hull Trains service I find that difficult as there is a train from York that arrives in Bull after midnight.
 

rjchapma

Member
Joined
8 Dec 2017
Messages
58
GC 180s are maintained in a different location, they have more of them and they are not diagrammed as intensely. I’m not sure of any future use for the HT ones at present.

where are the GC set's maintained - as I thought they were maintained by Bombardier at Crofton too - certainly RTT has paths for GC ECS from Bradford to Crofton?

I see that tomorrow's service is reduced again, with some only North of Doncaster. I spoke to Louise Cheeseman from HT about this when the problems started in October, and suggested that predictability of the service was paramount, and she agreed. I was informed that the plan was always to run with 1 spare set - so if 3 trains were serviceable then a 2 train diagram would be operated. It seems that this is not happening any more.

There is the ongoing problem of passengers being able to buy tickets for cancelled trains. I don't know how the system works for ticket sales, but HT seem to remove seat availability from a service when it's cancelled which leaves it showing in booking systems, all be it only for non-advanced fares and with no seat reservation. This makes it hard for passengers to know that the train is cancelled, it might just be full. when engineering is operation the services are fully removed from the timetable, can this be done for short notice cancellations. I acknowledge that already purchased tickets will remain a problem, but it does reduce the impact.

At the moment HT are so unreliable that for my reguar trips to KGX I drive to York and use LNER so I have a reasonable chance of getting to my destination.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,649
The problem with ticket availability is well known to them. I have had discussions with them about this previously. They couldn’t see where the issue was spouting the same stock response.
With a last minute cancellation we must accept that it is difficult and there will be times when a train remains in the booking engines. However for planned cancellations it’s not acceptable. Seat reservations are removed for these trains as are advances but you can still book the train and obtain an itinerary.

The train disappears overnight and on the day you cannot book a ticket but even the evening before you cam still book a ticket, even when the cancellations have been planned for a week. Those that haven’t gone out of their way to check the toc website (afterall why would you if a retailer is providing an itinerary) will find themselves buying a ticket the day before travel and unable to travel on the day or being delayed 2 hours. I’ve nog seen this happen anywhere else. Planned cancellations are all put in at the time, not on a day by day basis.


Edit :

Infact it seems they are better with the last minute cancellations as you cannot buy a ticket for tomorrow’s services already. Yet during the week you could buy a ticket for the planned cancellations right up to close if play the day before.
 

humbersidejim

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2015
Messages
98
They are inundated with claims at present so responses and payments are understandably taking a while to get through. If there is nothing missing or unusual about a claim then it will be dealt with as soon as they can but there are obviously a lot of them to get through at the moment.

The tone of your comment suggests that you have to routinely “push” them to get what you are entitled to, or they won’t pay out at all which is wrong.

They've been "inundated with claims" for months and should have taken reasonable steps to process a greater number in a timely fashion.

I'm afraid my experience is similar to that of poster robbeech; The last three delay repay claims I have made have been ignored. Only when chased months later by phone and email have I received any form of acknowledgement and finally payment.

After suffering many hours of lost time to their ongoing unreliability, this level of after service is simply not acceptable.

Myself and colleagues are now routinely requesting our travel department book work travel to London via LNER. The change at Doncaster is a small price to pay for the much greater chance of getting home roughly at the planned time and not being loaded onto some godforsaken bus at Peterborough.

You can't put a price on getting to put the kids to bed as promised.

The fact is that a growing number of regular travellers are losing all faith in the brand. It is developing a toxic reputation.

Rant over.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,649
LNER are not without their rolling stock issues. But with more services they’re able to offer increased flexibility. It is always a better bet regardless if HT reliability issues. The main thing is how it is dealt with. Delaying people for sometimes 3 hours (though usually only 2) is bad enough but then going on to reject their claims giving a reason that your train arrived on time (when you had to wait at Doncaster 2 hours for the next Hull Trains Service because nobody would confirm ticket acceptance) is really pushing people’s patience.
 

humbersidejim

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2015
Messages
98
LNER are not without their rolling stock issues. But with more services they’re able to offer increased flexibility. It is always a better bet regardless if HT reliability issues. The main thing is how it is dealt with. Delaying people for sometimes 3 hours (though usually only 2) is bad enough but then going on to reject their claims giving a reason that your train arrived on time (when you had to wait at Doncaster 2 hours for the next Hull Trains Service because nobody would confirm ticket acceptance) is really pushing people’s patience.

Not only that but there appears to be no obvious indication that the service reliability will improve at any point in the future.

The next set of PPM figures will be telling.
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
4,649
Not only that but there appears to be no obvious indication that the service reliability will improve at any point in the future.

The next set of PPM figures will be telling.

Are they based on what’s in the timetable? So planned cancellations count towards it?
 

humbersidejim

Member
Joined
7 Nov 2015
Messages
98
No, “planned” cancellations put in overnight don’t count as failures so you can get far higher figures than you should.
Thanks for correcting me. Whilst I assume it's standard industry practice, it does let operators off the hook somewhat.

So as an example, under that measure, HT could cancel 13 of their 14 services the night before, and as long as the one service they do run gets in within 5 mins, they'd score 100% for that day?
 

F Great Eastern

Established Member
Joined
2 Apr 2009
Messages
3,589
Location
East Anglia
Someone was speaking about the JourneyCheck reason about many trains needing maintenance than expected at one time leading to a cancellation - that's simply the newer way of putting a positive spin on the previous JourneyCheck reason which was in relation to a lack of serviceable rolling stock. The new way focuses on fixing the problem (maintenance) rather than the problem itself (not serviceable)

This is the same reason that TFL now say 'major delays on the circle line whilst we fix signalling equipment' rather than 'major delays on the circle line due to a signal failure'
Thanks for correcting me. Whilst I assume it's standard industry practice, it does let operators off the hook somewhat.

So as an example, under that measure, HT could cancel 13 of their 14 services the night before, and as long as the one service they do run gets in within 5 mins, they'd score 100% for that day?

It's the same way that GA can get away with reporting 60-70 short formed trains per period when at one point they were advertising more than that per day on JourneyCheck.

Since they were advertised as being short forms ahead of running rather than being short forms unexpectedly and also the fact GA specify length of trains as less than they normally run them as, the reported short forms for statistical reasons are dway way lower than JourneyCheck would show.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
23,351
Location
Bolton
See my reply above - the train was repaired, returned to service (albeit short formed) and failed with a different and unrelated fault.
I love that this is somehow the best thing someoe looking exclusively to defend Hull Trains can actually think of to say.
 

Polarbear

Established Member
Joined
24 May 2008
Messages
1,705
Location
Birkenhead
I love that this is somehow the best thing someoe looking exclusively to defend Hull Trains can actually think of to say.

With respect, I’m not sure that the comment was specifically defending Hull Trains, but was making a factual point that the train in question had been repaired, then promptly failed again! That, unfortunately, is something that no one can predict, though with 180’s being involved, it’s arguably more predictable.
 

Mark Webster

Member
Joined
29 Aug 2018
Messages
124
Why would you go to St Pancras for a GTR train to Peterborough???
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top