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Hull Trains cancellations due to chronic shortage of available rolling stock

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Darandio

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Not 100% sure , but I think you could still buy a Hull Trains only ticket for one of there services yesterday from an LNER station booking office even though they would know about the disruption that Hull Trains was having and the arrangements for passing there passengers on LNER trains.
I bet also Trainline was still selling tickets for Hull Trains only services too yesterday and agin today I bet.

They all will be as they are in the system, you sell the passenger what they want. In this case i'd like to think that staff at a booking office would try and advise about potential issues though.
 
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So presumably the average passenger, when buying a ticket, should take the time to check the size of an operator's fleet and their recent reliability record, so as to make an informed choice?

(because this is the forum that it is, I fully expect a load of people to answer "yes"....)

Couldn’t agree more. We all know on this forum that there is little chance of HT providing a full service anytime soon. The occasional leisure traveller would not.

The HT website proudly boasts 92 direct services each week between London and Hull. Could someone report them for that ?
 

Megafuss

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To be fair, until Hull Trains stop selling Hull Trains only tickets while they have these major issues then I can't blame LNER for its stance today. If I was Average Joe Passenger there is literally nothing stopping me buying a Hull Trains ticket and expecting LNER to pick up the slack when I get to the station to find my train cancelled.

First Hull Trains appear to have left the problem with the customer to deal with - offering refunds for other services if customers choose to buy new tickets and not use the wholly inadequate alternative areangements. It just looks amatuer.
 

Failed Unit

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Couldn’t agree more. We all know on this forum that there is little chance of HT providing a full service anytime soon. The occasional leisure traveller would not.

The HT website proudly boasts 92 direct services each week between London and Hull. Could someone report them for that ?

I bet HTs performance is worse than GTRs (Great Northern) over past 12 months. What surprises me is nothing yet mentioned for tomorrow. I guess they may be praying they have some sets by later today to run Hull - Doncaster. Doubt we will see LNER acceptance tomorrow either. They are busy enough on Sunday.
 

Darandio

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I've only just noticed they posted this on Twitter before lunch.

CANCELLATION UPDATE (13/10/18): Customers are advised that, due to issues sourcing Replacement Road Transport, they can purchase a ticket to be used on LNER services for 13/10/18 ONLY and Hull Trains will refund the cost of this ticket. Hull Trains is sorry for the inconvenience

But I cannot see anything on their website that reflects this, can anyone else see anything? As this is a place where people would be buying tickets, this means that people are potentially buying Hull Trains only tickets and then only finding out afterwards that they have to buy another ticket for travel. It's all very well offering refunds, but some people just don't have this spare cash lying around.
 

158756

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On their website they publish their performance statistics as does the Orr.

https://www.hulltrains.co.uk/customer-services/how-we-are-performing/

Apologies I know the link is against forum rules but on a mobile device so can’t cut and paste the table.

Basically 1 in 10 services are cancelled. 3 in 10 late.

The very few passengers who read that page (and understand what CaSL and MAA mean) probably think that is normal, or even better than average.

The way this is being handled reflects very badly on the rail network as a whole, further damaging what little trust there is in an industry widely expected not to deliver the advertised service or care about it's customers. It might make financial sense in the 'market' of the modern railway, but a large majority of the country wants nationalisation, and who can blame them? (Not that the state has any interest in serving Hull more than once a day of course.)
 

humbersidejim

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With the WCML blocked north of Carlisle due to a landslip, Virgin customers to Scotland are being put on LNER. This will make ticket acceptance for HT even more difficult.
 

Starmill

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wezmerc

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There are engineering works on the midland mainline today with no directs to st pancras. East Midlands have been recommending the via Grantham/Newark route for some time which I suspect is why HT acceptance hasn't been forthcoming today
 

Failed Unit

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Yes. So absolutely nothing at all like what you said.

Depends how you look at that. Their own figures show they have the worse performance in the industry. So therefore you are taking a risk booking with them. What are you looking for a big warning when booking highlighting this and pointing to this link?
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Depends how you look at that. Their own figures show they have the worse performance in the industry. So therefore you are taking a risk booking with them. What are you looking for a big warning when booking highlighting this and pointing to this link?
If you suggest that passengers should accept this increased risk when booking, then yes, I think that is the very least that the TOCs could be expected to do!
 

dmncf

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I travelled on the Bakerloo line today and saw a Hull Trains liveried Class 180 at Alstom's Stonebridge Park depot. On one carriage it had white stains on its underframe. Not sure if it was a recent engine fire victim - I didn't catch the set number.
 

Darandio

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Still no update on plans for tomorrow but some services have suprisingly been part reinstated today.

The 18:34 Hull service has been reinstated and will terminate at Peterborough. From Peterborough, take the next GTR service to London King's Cross. Hull 1834 Brough 1846 Howden 1857 Selby 1909 Doncaster 1927 Retford 1941 Grantham 2004 Peterborough 2021

The 19:48 King's Cross service has been reinstated and will start at Peterborough. Take the next GTR service you can to Peterborough. Peterborough 20:36 Grantham 20:52 Retford 21:14 Doncaster 21:29 Selby 21:44 Howden 21:54 Brough 22:06 Hull 22:20
 

ACBest

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Couple of services have been re-instated running Hull - Peterborough and return according to Twitter...

Edit - beaten to it!
 

Darandio

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They are also saying on Twitter that tickets for this weekend haven't been sold on their website since Wednesday. Some people on there have a different opinion!
 

Andrewh32

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I travelled on the Bakerloo line today and saw a Hull Trains liveried Class 180 at Alstom's Stonebridge Park depot. On one carriage it had white stains on its underframe. Not sure if it was a recent engine fire victim - I didn't catch the set number.

Correct that is the fire damaged unit
 

Starmill

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Depends how you look at that. Their own figures show they have the worse performance in the industry. So therefore you are taking a risk booking with them. What are you looking for a big warning when booking highlighting this and pointing to this link?
You said that customers "know" (through some unspecified means) that HT's trains fail when they choose to book. That's clear nonsense and you've done nothing to demonstrate it. Also 'worst performance in the industry' seems not to be supported by available data.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Also 'worst performance in the industry' seems not to be supported by available data.
Well, I suppose if you base that statement on the performance of the past few days... Then it's not that inaccurate!
 

SilentGrade

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I think some people in the forum forget that the main competition to the railway industry in many areas is other forms of transport such as air and road and events such as this, as well as the ticket acceptance debacle, do nothing to increase the reputation of the railway.

Especially so for discretionary travellers.
 

Deafdoggie

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Or because they're the main operator from London to Selby/Hull. Or because their services happen to be at the time that the person wants to travel. Assuming that the only reason people travel on Hull Trains is due to price is ignorant.

Online shopping is also a poor comparison: If Tesco don't deliver my food, I can walk to the local shop and buy some food from there. Or eat something that I already have in my fridge. Whereas, if I'm in Howden waiting for my service to London and it's cancelled, I'm left either paying many hundreds of pounds for a taxi, or a very long journey with multiple changes and having to buy a new ticket. None of this is cheap.

Most people booking tickets would rather get to their destination than be subjected to the huge stress that Hull Trains' poor performance is currently causing. As I have said many times to various TOCs on the phone: "If I had known you would cancel this service, I would have booked on a different train. The point is that that information wasn't available when I booked the tickets."

But that’s my point! All those people have chosen to buy the cheaper “Hull Trains only ticket” buying the dearer “Any Operator” ticket doesn’t buy you problems if there’s no Hull Trains Service. You pays your money you takes your choice.
If I pay Tesco to deliver my food but then go to a different supermarket to buy it, is that not the same as buying a train ticket for one operator but then buying a ticket for another one? Which is exactly what HT say to do.
 

Starmill

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All those people have chosen to buy the cheaper “Hull Trains only ticket” buying the dearer “Any Operator” ticket doesn’t buy you problems if there’s no Hull Trains Service. You pays your money you takes your choice.
Except that this isn't necessarily true as has already been explained. HT are not a "low cost" or "budget" operator. Their Advance tickets can cost just the same or more than equivalent LNER tickets, especially in the case of the Beverley services. Hull Trains' popularity stems primarily from offering a direct train where few or none would otherwise exist, not really from the budget market.

This narrative is illogical and self-defeating.
 

mmh

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The anti-passenger sentiment from some people in this conversation is stunning. No, the railway is not always right.

If you were in Hull (or Selby, Brough...) and got to the station to discover all direct trains to London were cancelled, you'd be annoyed but think oh well, I'll need to change at Doncaster.

Not I'll have to go to Sheffield, a bus, maybe Peterborough, Liverpool or Rome.

I've only used Hull Trains twice, because I wanted to go from London to, err, Hull.
 

Failed Unit

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You said that customers "know" (through some unspecified means) that HT's trains fail when they choose to book. That's clear nonsense and you've done nothing to demonstrate it. Also 'worst performance in the industry' seems not to be supported by available data.

The figures very clearly show that 1 in 10 hull trains are cancelled over the past year. Maybe not as clearly shown as it could be as the terms they use could be in plain English.

As for the worse in the industry again that is clear to see. How many other operators have not ran a single service throughout all week.

I have no axe to grind with hull trains. But they will take a while to recover from the negative publicity. As for the 180s. It is a fact that even the hull trains ones are more reliable than the GTR class 700s.
 

bengley

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The figures very clearly show that 1 in 10 hull trains are cancelled over the past year. Maybe not as clearly shown as it could be as the terms they use could be in plain English.

As for the worse in the industry again that is clear to see. How many other operators have not ran a single service throughout all week.

I have no axe to grind with hull trains. But they will take a while to recover from the negative publicity. As for the 180s. It is a fact that even the hull trains ones are more reliable than the GTR class 700s.

A fact, really?
 

westv

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I see there's one through service scheduled for today so I'm more optimistic my 06:26 will run ok tomorrow.
 

Failed Unit

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A fact, really?

Miles per technical incident are published figures so yes it is a fact. Last set I saw published this was the case. Recent events may have dropped the HT class 180 moving average but these figures will not yet be published as we are currently in the reporting period these incidents happened. (Sandy and Grantham to name 2). Remember the class 700 hasn’t got to 8000 miles per technical incident the HT180s were closer to 15000 miles per technical incident.

The same figures show that they voyagers reliability is significantly better. They also show the GC units are more reliable.
 

Haywain

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Miles per technical incident are published figures so yes it is a fact. Last set I saw published this was the case. Recent events may have dropped the HT class 180 moving average but these figures will not yet be published as we are currently in the reporting period these incidents happened. (Sandy and Grantham to name 2). Remember the class 700 hasn’t got to 8000 miles per technical incident the HT180s were closer to 15000 miles per technical incident.
The reliability figures though do not tell the whole story. The impact of the cancellation of a Hull Trains class 180 service is far greater than the impact of a cancellation of a service provided by a GTR class 700 because GTR will have another service along much sooner than Hull Trains will.
 

Failed Unit

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The reliability figures though do not tell the whole story. The impact of the cancellation of a Hull Trains class 180 service is far greater than the impact of a cancellation of a service provided by a GTR class 700 because GTR will have another service along much sooner than Hull Trains will.

GTR manage huge gaps (many hours) in service following a failed 700. ;) joking aside on that sentence I know what you mean. When you have a small fleet the impact of a single failure is much more disruptive. If HT have to remove a diagram because of a stock issue they soon are cancelling a large % of services. GTR lose a diagram (or 2) and it is lost in the noise.
 

Haywain

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If you have a HT only ticket you took your chance knowing that the 180s fail.
I agree with @Starmill that it is completely unreasonable to expect ordinary rail using members of the public to think like this.
until Hull Trains stop selling Hull Trains only tickets while they have these major issues
It's not that simple though. The whole industry retails tickets and removing availability when even Hull Trains can't say what services will be running tomorrow just isn't possible. And bear in mind that under the rules of impartial retailing most ticket sellers are bound to sell a Hull Trains Only ticket if a customer insists on buying one.
They are also saying on Twitter that tickets for this weekend haven't been sold on their website since Wednesday.
Other websites are available though.
If you were in Hull (or Selby, Brough...) and got to the station to discover all direct trains to London were cancelled, you'd be annoyed but think oh well, I'll need to change at Doncaster.
A significant percentage of rail users find the idea of changing trains during a journey a major disincentive to using rail at all, rather than taking the casual attitude to it that you suggest. It is because of running direct trains to Hull that Hull Trains have done so well in growing passenger numbers.
 
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