Hull Trains cancellations due to chronic shortage of available rolling stock

[johnnychips]

I've had it before when a 180 has been parked in platform 6 forcing the hourly Leeds stopper to use platform 7.

Next two Leeds stoppers are from Platform 7 in Donny. There was a HT parked in 6 at 1650, didn’t see the number.

 

[Polarbear]

If a HST is sourced, it’s pretty certain it’ll be an ex GWR set. Can’t see an EMT set bring hired to HT.

 

[Qwerty133]

Why would EMT hire a set out if it affected their own services?

Because they can make more money from hiring it out and short forming their own services. Not as though there isn't precedent for EMT hiring HSTs out on days they have short formed trains on the London route.

 

[cactustwirly]

If a HST is sourced, it’s pretty certain it’ll be an ex GWR set. Can’t see an EMT set bring hired to HT.

EMT don't have any sets to hire out, all 8 sets get used Mon - Fri & Sunday

 

[Agent_Squash]

If a HST is sourced, it’s pretty certain it’ll be an ex GWR set. Can’t see an EMT set bring hired to HT.

First own some HSTs/Mk3 stock so it would make sense economically as well.

 

[takno]

I thought Scotrail were storing HST's at Ely as they are not ready for them so no reason why they would mind Hull trains borrowing them short term surely

They're pulling a bunch of them into service unconverted to cover for the 170s they are losing. Not sure if any would be left over between those and the ones that are getting worked on.

Would an HST be able to put in anything like a good enough performance on the route? The Hull Trains services do a lot of stopping, and doing that with longer station dwell times and poorer acceleration could completely wreck the East Coast timetable.

 

[Darandio]

Hull Trains themselves have now released a statement which does make mention of sourcing an additional train, nothing detailed.

https://www.hulltrains.co.uk/about-...-on-service-disruption-–-261018/#.W9NJBjFRcdV

A spokesperson for Hull Trains, said: “We are pleased to report that three of our four trains have now been fully repaired. We are hopeful that the fourth train will be back in service by mid-November. Following feedback from our customers and stakeholders, we feel it could be counterproductive to reinstate a full service right now, so we have decided to continue with a reduced timetable until all four trains are back in service. This will at least give some certainty to our customers about what trains will be running to the normal timetable and which services will be subject to contingency arrangements. It will mean that eight out of our 14 services will run as normal.

“We are also looking at trying to source an additional train so that our services are more resilient ahead of the delivery of our new fleet next year. This isn’t without its challenges, but we are doing all that we can to make this happen. We cannot share any more information about this at this time.

“This has been a very difficult time for Hull Trains, our customers and our people. We are very sorry for the ongoing disruption to our customers. We are grateful for everyone’s patience, support and understanding while we get things fully back on track as soon as we can. We will be back in touch with additional information when there is more to report.”

 

[westv]

So when's the seat sale?

 

[43096]

Because they can make more money from hiring it out and short forming their own services. Not as though there isn't precedent for EMT hiring HSTs out on days they have short formed trains on the London route.

If you're referring to the period earlier this year during/just after the snowfall, that was a very different situation. It was a hire to VTEC to substitute for failed Mark 4 sets: VTEC would have been cancelling services without the hire-in. It was a decision made by Stagecoach (as they controlled EMT and VTEC) that was in the best overall interests of Stagecoach customers.

This is very different: Stagecoach (EMT) are not going to bail out their competitor WorstGroup (Hull) at the expense of their own services.

 

[Polarbear]

First own some HSTs/Mk3 stock so it would make sense economically as well.

Could be an option I suppose?

 

[Qwerty133]

If you're referring to the period earlier this year during/just after the snowfall, that was a very different situation. It was a hire to VTEC to substitute for failed Mark 4 sets: VTEC would have been cancelling services without the hire-in. It was a decision made by Stagecoach (as they controlled EMT and VTEC) that was in the best overall interests of Stagecoach customers.

This is very different: Stagecoach (EMT) are not going to bail out their competitor WorstGroup (Hull) at the expense of their own services.

It is rather worrying if you suggest EMT faces outside interference from elsewhere within stagecoach to not put its own passengers first. I also note there were no class 158s bought up from SWT during the 2016-2017 period during which EMT began to experience the chronic short forming on the Liverpool to Norwich route due to DDA mods which would suggest that the outside influence only ever goes one way.

 

[43096]

It is rather worrying if you suggest EMT faces outside interference from elsewhere within stagecoach to not put its own passengers first.

It isn't worrying at all. It is good business practice by Stagecoach - and the decision was made at group level.

In simple terms, by using the Derby "hot spare" 222, EMT ran a 5-car vice 8-car on two trains during the day. This released an HST to cover a Mark 4 diagram that would otherwise have been cancelled. Not ideal, but much better overall.

 

[jon0844]

Hull Trains themselves have now released a statement which does make mention of sourcing an additional train, nothing detailed.

https://www.hulltrains.co.uk/about-us/news/2018/10/statement-–-update-on-service-disruption-–-261018/#.W9NJBjFRcdV

Three out of four isn't too bad. At least they can be called Hull Trains again, instead of Hull Train and for a while just Hull.

 

[ainsworth74]

Reminder that this thread is about Hull Trains. Anyone who wishes to air their grievances regarding EMT and Stagecoach decisions relating to rolling stock and intra-group loans will need to start a new thread. Any further posts on that issue are liable for deletion as being off-topic.

 

[Clarence Yard]

2 surplus 2+5 GWR sets is the plan. One for service and one as a spare. Just waiting for enough power cars to become available, which should happen in the next month, as 4 GWR HST diagrams change over to IET.

HT drivers have already started HST training.

 

[_toommm_]

2 surplus 2+5 GWR sets is the plan. One for service and one as a spare. Just waiting for enough power cars to become available, which should happen in the next month, as 4 GWR HST diagrams change over to IET.

HT drivers have already started HST training.

Source for this info?

 

[rjchapma]

Nothing is 100% confirmed on HST hire yet, but options are being explored.

Station staff dispatch HT services at ECML stations, but Selby - Beverley inclusive are self-dispatch.

180113 is due back in traffic imminently with one vehicle from 180109 in the consist. 180110 will go into depot in its place, but that is the unit which is restricted to north of Doncaster at present so at least HT will be able to run an improved service to/from London.

What is it that prevents 180110 from travelling south of Donny?

 

[HullRailMan]

What is it that prevents 180110 from travelling south of Donny?

Only 3 engines so can’t reach line speed

 

[158820]

Source for this info?

Clarence Yard is one of best/most in the know people on this forum on first group matters .please take him at his word.

 

[Phlip]

They're pulling a bunch of them into service unconverted to cover for the 170s they are losing. Not sure if any would be left over between those and the ones that are getting worked on.

Would an HST be able to put in anything like a good enough performance on the route? The Hull Trains services do a lot of stopping, and doing that with longer station dwell times and poorer acceleration could completely wreck the East Coast timetable.

Err, on the ECML they stop at Doncaster, Retford and Grantham. Then it's fast to Kings Cross - over an hour of non-stop running. Hardly lots of stops. A 2+5 HST ought to be able to keep up.

 

[_toommm_]

Err, on the ECML they stop at Doncaster, Retford and Grantham. Then it's fast to Kings Cross - over an hour of non-stop running. Hardly lots of stops. A 2+5 HST ought to be able to keep up.

Selby, Howden, Brough, Hull. I think that was the main point of the fairly frequent stopping

 

[Phlip]

Selby, Howden, Brough, Hull. I think that was the main point of the fairly frequent stopping

Those aren't on the ECML and line speeds are relatively low so hardly in a position to "completely wreck" the East Coast timetable.

 

[43055]

Those aren't on the ECML and line speeds are relatively low so hardly in a position to "completely wreck" the East Coast timetable.

I think its more going south as the HST will have longer dwell times than 180s if its self dispatch which could course it to be late by the time its at Doncaster and joins the ECML.

 

[A Challenge]

Will it be the case that they will be non-compliant to the new rules that come in in 2020 as they should be replaced by then?

 

[_toommm_]

Will it be the case that they will be non-compliant to the new rules that come in in 2020 as they should be replaced by then?

One would hope the 180s are fixed by then - they've all suffered similar faults so there must be something defective that will be found sooner or later. But hopefully the 802s will be in service by then, if there aren't any more teething problems.

 

[hexagon789]

Apologies if they has been posted about before, but I couldn't find anything in the Traction & Rolling stock section.

I've heard that Hull Trains are to get two short-formed HST sets to cover for the Adelantes - one in service and the other as a spare. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[swt_passenger]

Apologies if they has been posted about before, but I couldn't find anything in the Traction & Rolling stock section.

I've heard that Hull Trains are to get two short-formed HST sets to cover for the Adelantes - one in service and the other as a spare. Can anyone confirm this?

Post #225 above refers. Has your question been moved here?

 

[CC 72100]

Clarence Yard is one of best/most in the know people on this forum on first group matters .please take him at his word.

Indeed - there's very few people who I'd believe 100% on online forum with no source etc., but Clarence Yard is one of them and has been right on everything before, so I'd be confident in taking their word.

 

[Phlip]

I think its more going south as the HST will have longer dwell times than 180s if its self dispatch which could course it to be late by the time its at Doncaster and joins the ECML.

Well if dwell times at Brough, Howden and a Selby are all a minute longer that would bearly have any impact given the slack in the timetable. For example: The 06:00 Beverley to Kings Cross runs slow line from Doncaster to Loversall Carr Junction before being timetabled to sit for 11 minutes at Retford. The 08:23 Hull to Kings Cross is timetabled 23 minutes to get from Selby to Doncaster (it takes 15 minutes). The 15:12 (same diagram as the 08:23) has 3 minutes slack between Brough and Doncaster.

Also the new signalling between Ferriby and Gilberdyke is being commissioned in December and will bring some line speed improvements.

So 2+5 HSTs aren’t going to cause any problems! it’s just wibble!

 

[Aictos]

2 surplus 2+5 GWR sets is the plan. One for service and one as a spare. Just waiting for enough power cars to become available, which should happen in the next month, as 4 GWR HST diagrams change over to IET.

HT drivers have already started HST training.

Interesting and a positive move from First Group however where are these two sets going to be maintained?