Hull Trains cancellations due to chronic shortage of available rolling stock

[adrock1976]

Interesting and a positive move from First Group however where are these two sets going to be maintained?

I believe that the nearest depot to the Hull Trains route is Neville Hill, Leeds so that may be a possibility as they already have experience of HSTs - also Neville Hill is the home of the East Midlands fleet of HSTs as well.

Perhaps somebody who as better knowledge of Hull Trains than me may be able to confirm if that may be a possibility or not?

 

[takno]

Err, on the ECML they stop at Doncaster, Retford and Grantham. Then it's fast to Kings Cross - over an hour of non-stop running. Hardly lots of stops. A 2+5 HST ought to be able to keep up.

So that's potentially 5 minutes total extra dwell time, particularly as inexperienced staff manage slam doors, followed by nearly 10 minutes getting to line speed after each stop, or basically a third of the journey. A significant proportion of following trains will be non-stop for that entire portion, and if they do stop will have shorter dwell times and potentially better performance off the blocks. Obviously being shortened down to 5 coaches will help a bit, but whether it will help enough is a perfectly reasonable question

 

[swaldman]

So that's potentially 5 minutes total extra dwell time, particularly as inexperienced staff manage slam doors, followed by nearly 10 minutes getting to line speed after each stop, or basically a third of the journey. A significant proportion of following trains will be non-stop for that entire portion, and if they do stop will have shorter dwell times and potentially better performance off the blocks. Obviously being shortened down to 5 coaches will help a bit, but whether it will help enough is a perfectly reasonable question

I believe I read somewhere that Scotrail are expecting their short HST sets to keep up with Voyager timings. Not sure how 180s compare with those?

 

[Polarbear]

The possibility of one, maybe two shortened HST’s reported upthread mirrors my understanding of the way forward. It’s not an ideal solution, but as the thread title correctly reflects, HT have had a lousy run of rubbish reliability with the 180’s.

As regards timekeeping, I’ve no doubt having slam door stock will not help matters, but given that some HT diagrams have dwell time at certain points, I’m sure it’s not insurmountable. Let’s not forget that this is a temporary measure, and that new bi-modes are on order, with delivery expected & entry into service in the next 12 months or so.

Personally, I’d rather have a train running 5-10 minutes late than no train at all, or a long distance taxi/bus move, as a lot of HT customers have had to endure due to the 180’s being pretty rubbish below the sole bar.

 

[westv]

The 06:00 Beverley to Kings Cross runs slow line from Doncaster to Loversall Carr Junction before being timetabled to sit for 11 minutes at Retford.

And it's not uncommon for it to arrive on time at Retford but then to depart late due to late running LNER services.

 

[Phlip]

So that's potentially 5 minutes total extra dwell time, particularly as inexperienced staff manage slam doors, followed by nearly 10 minutes getting to line speed after each stop, or basically a third of the journey.

The dispatch staff at Doncaster, Retford, Grantham and Kings Cross have been dispatching HSTs since they were first introduced by British Rail. They’re not inexperienced.

A Class 180 develops 14.85 hp/tonne. A 2+5 HST develops 14.46 hp/tonne. The relative performance is near enough the same. 2+5 HSTs are not an unknown quantity on the ECML. Grand Central used them for years. 0 - 125 mph is nowhere near 10 minutes. It’s more like 5 minutes.

A significant proportion of following trains will be non-stop for that entire portion, and if they do stop will have shorter dwell times and potentially better performance off the blocks.

Of the LNER services off peak: Only one train per hour is non-stop. One is all major stops. Two others make the same number of stops as the Hull Trains services between Doncaster and Kings Cross. The remaining train makes one stop.

LNER’s 2+9 HSTs and 1+10 Electric sets are SLOWER off the blocks than a 2+5 HST is by some margin.

Obviously being shortened down to 5 coaches will help a bit, but whether it will help enough is a perfectly reasonable question

Ok. Well I hope that answers it.

 

[hexagon789]

Post #225 above refers. Has your question been moved here?

Yes it has, not for want of searching to make sure it hadn't been covered already though.

Will have a read through above, thanks

 

[hexagon789]

0 - 125 mph is nowhere near 10 minutes. It’s more like 5 minutes.

BR quoted a 2+7 set as 0-100 in 3 mins 15, 100-125 in a further 4.

 

[takno]

The dispatch staff at Doncaster, Retford, Grantham and Kings Cross have been dispatching HSTs since they were first introduced by British Rail. They’re not inexperienced.

A Class 180 develops 14.85 hp/tonne. A 2+5 HST develops 14.46 hp/tonne. The relative performance is near enough the same. 2+5 HSTs are not an unknown quantity on the ECML. Grand Central used them for years. 0 - 125 mph is nowhere near 10 minutes. It’s more like 5 minutes.



Of the LNER services off peak: Only one train per hour is non-stop. One is all major stops. Two others make the same number of stops as the Hull Trains services between Doncaster and Kings Cross. The remaining train makes one stop.

LNER’s 2+9 HSTs and 1+10 Electric sets are SLOWER off the blocks than a 2+5 HST is by some margin.



Ok. Well I hope that answers it.

The Hull Trains guards and drivers won't be experienced in dispatch. The non-stop train directly follows the Hull train northbound, so it's directly relevant. The other Edinburgh train stops at Peterborough and will therefore have already been delayed by the Hull train, probably enough to get in the way of the fast Edinburgh. The comparison with LNER's stock is pretty much irrelevant, since they aren't meant to be stopping. Good that the 2+5s are quicker off the mark, but they need to be, and they need to be driven reasonably hard to stick to the more aggressive timetable.

I admire your confidence, but won't be even slightly surprised to see my journey delayed by this

 

[Aictos]

The Hull Trains guards and drivers won't be experienced in dispatch.

It's not rocket science to dispatch slam door stock at the moment for these above it will just be a short 1 day course if that to explain the different method of dispatch vs power operated doors indeed it could be delivered in half a day.

Once their rules manager passes them, that's it and it's added to their Safety Critical Work ID card which has the various types of duties that they are cleared to do plus their file will be updated so there really isn't a issue over Hull Trains using HSTs.

 

[wils180]

It's not rocket science to dispatch slam door stock at the moment for these above it will just be a short 1 day course if that to explain the different method of dispatch vs power operated doors indeed it could be delivered in half a day.

My HST traction delivered just last year was a full 2 day course. This is already massively slimmed down from what it used to be in the not too distant past. Traction training is not simply a case of learning different dispatch methods.

Granted, given they’re suggested to be 2+5 I don’t expect we’ll see dwell times slip as much as 2+8s do.

 

[Aictos]

My HST traction delivered just last year was a full 2 day course. This is already massively slimmed down from what it used to be in the not too distant past. Traction training is not simply a case of learning different dispatch methods.

Granted, given they’re suggested to be 2+5 I don’t expect we’ll see dwell times slip as much as 2+8s do.

I'm just referring to the dispatch part of the HST training, I have no idea what is actually covered for the traction part but it's not rocket science where the dispatch is concerned so I have no worries about Hull Trains.

As to the dwell times, I agree with you that it won't make much of a impact as they will be quicker off the mark then 2+8s or 2+9s even.

 

[Ben Bow]

Pax on the 18.47 Hull-London tonight will be having a long journey - the train terminated at Dony and forward transport to Kings Cross is by bus, all the way.

 

[A Challenge]

Pax on the 18.47 Hull-London tonight will be having a long journey - the train terminated at Dony and forward transport to Kings Cross is by bus, all the way.

At least they aren't bussing them as far as Stevenage or Peterborough and putting them on a GTR service.

 

[_toommm_]

At least they aren't bussing them as far as Stevenage or Peterborough and putting them on a GTR service.

That's what's happened with the 17:47 HT from KGX - the departure boards today were advising GTR+bus, or wait til 19:50 (over two hours) for an LNER service.

Mad.

 

[JonathanH]

Interesting and a positive move from First Group however where are these two sets going to be maintained?

I believe that the nearest depot to the Hull Trains route is Neville Hill, Leeds so that may be a possibility as they already have experience of HSTs - also Neville Hill is the home of the East Midlands fleet of HSTs as well.

Perhaps somebody who as better knowledge of Hull Trains than me may be able to confirm if that may be a possibility or not?

It would appear to fit better with the Hull Trains operation to use the HSTs on the London starter / finisher - which can go to Bounds Green overnight (although Bounds Green doesn't see many LNER HSTs overnight) if an LNER depot is involved. Given the units cycle over the course of three days at present, you may need to do a swap in Doncaster on a service during the day to keep the HST overnight in London every night (although maybe light servicing is possible in Hull every other day and it only needs to go to Bounds Green every other night).

 

[53703]

It would appear to fit better with the Hull Trains operation to use the HSTs on the London starter / finisher - which can go to Bounds Green overnight (although Bounds Green doesn't see many LNER HSTs overnight) if an LNER depot is involved. Given the units cycle over the course of three days at present, you may need to do a swap in Doncaster on a service during the day to keep the HST overnight in London every night (although maybe light servicing is possible in Hull every other day and it only needs to go to Bounds Green every other night).

Didn't Hull Trains 180s used to go Old Oak Common for maintenance?

 

[Roger100]

180113 was on platform 5 at Kings Cross yesterday evening, and ran back to Hull arriving slightly early - service 1H08.
The other one in my photo is GC's 180108 in which I travelled to Hartlepool, and just after I took the photo 180107 arrived on Platform 8.
GC had a problem on a 180 from Kings Cross on Thursday, it passed Billingham on time but terminated at Hartlepool 82 minutes late. I don't know what was wrong but it didn't continue to Sunderland but must have been fixed quickly as it ran the next service from Hartlepool to Kings Cross half an hour later, making up 10 minutes on the way. Maybe not a train fault?

 

[westv]

And it's not uncommon for it to arrive on time at Retford but then to depart late due to late running LNER services.

7 mins late leaving last Monday.
5 min late leaving today.
Both times the HTs service arrived we on time.

 

[ainsworth74]

Didn't Hull Trains 180s used to go Old Oak Common for maintenance?

They did (and it's when they moved back to Crofton that this seemed to really all fall apart) but a large chunk of Old Oak has been levelled now (I believe) and there really isn't much depot left!

 

[Clarence Yard]

Only the 3 road HST shed left at the Oak, not many HST sets go in there now and not many staff are left. The HST shed finishes w.e.f. 10/12/18.

The maintenance base for any HT sets will be SPM - weekly exams and above will be done there. Daily servicing will be done at an ECML depot (not NL) and details for that are being sorted out now.

 

[Aictos]

Only the 3 road HST shed left at the Oak, not many HST sets go in there now and not many staff are left. The HST shed finishes w.e.f. 10/12/18.

The maintenance base for any HT sets will be SPM - weekly exams and above will be done there. Daily servicing will be done at an ECML depot (not NL) and details for that are being sorted out now.

My money is on Bounds Green being that ECML depot as it's closer to London with Heaton being the backup ECML depot.

 

[DarloRich]

Interesting and a positive move from First Group however where are these two sets going to be maintained?

I believe that the nearest depot to the Hull Trains route is Neville Hill, Leeds so that may be a possibility as they already have experience of HSTs - also Neville Hill is the home of the East Midlands fleet of HSTs as well.

Perhaps somebody who as better knowledge of Hull Trains than me may be able to confirm if that may be a possibility or not?

Neville Hill I assume.

A Class 180 develops 14.85 hp/tonne. A 2+5 HST develops 14.46 hp/tonne. The relative performance is near enough the same. 2+5 HSTs are not an unknown quantity on the ECML. Grand Central used them for years. 0 - 125 mph is nowhere near 10 minutes. It’s more like 5 minutes.

I have done a GC 2+5 ( i think i did a + 4 at one point) that went like stink of a shovel. One of the fastest runs i have had form York to Kings Cross. Driver must have been on a promise!

The Hull Trains guards and drivers won't be experienced in dispatch. The non-stop train directly follows the Hull train northbound, so it's directly relevant. The other Edinburgh train stops at Peterborough and will therefore have already been delayed by the Hull train, probably enough to get in the way of the fast Edinburgh. The comparison with LNER's stock is pretty much irrelevant, since they aren't meant to be stopping. Good that the 2+5s are quicker off the mark, but they need to be, and they need to be driven reasonably hard to stick to the more aggressive timetable.

I admire your confidence, but won't be even slightly surprised to see my journey delayed by this

The delay is going to be minimal

 

[Aictos]

Neville Hill I assume.

It won't be Neville Hill as confirmed by Clarence Yard in his post:

Daily servicing will be done at an ECML depot (not NL) and details for that are being sorted out now.

I have done a GC 2+5 ( i think i did a + 4 at one point) that went like stink of a shovel. One of the fastest runs i have had form York to Kings Cross. Driver must have been on a promise!

Indeed which is why they're like pocket rockets!

The delay is going to be minimal

I agree, any delay is barely going to be noticeable as it will be minimal and nothing at all like the delays that some on this forum have forecast will happen.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I have done a GC 2+5 ( i think i did a + 4 at one point) that went like stink of a shovel. One of the fastest runs i have had form York to Kings Cross. Driver must have been on a promise!

In their early days GC got formally pulled up for that. Running 2+4 HST sets in excess of 100mph is a breach of the rulebook regarding available braking force. I remember seeing it confidentially reported in CIRAS, and not long after that GC were running 2+5 sets as standard.

 

[Mollman]

Will it be the case that they will be non-compliant to the new rules that come in in 2020 as they should be replaced by then?

The 802 should hopefully be in service by then.

 

[DarloRich]

In their early days GC got formally pulled up for that. Running 2+4 HST sets in excess of 100mph is a breach of the rulebook regarding available braking force. I remember seeing it confidentially reported in CIRAS, and not long after that GC were running 2+5 sets as standard.

I didn't know that! I was merely a passenger at that time so pleased to be home smartly. There is some interesting stuff in CIRAS.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Training on Mk3 stock is at least 2 days. There's a lot more to it than just how to dispatch!

Technical stuff required to learn (failures, contingiencies, emergencies, etc) for starters are a whole lot different to a class 180.

 

[43096]

In their early days GC got formally pulled up for that. Running 2+4 HST sets in excess of 100mph is a breach of the rulebook regarding available braking force. I remember seeing it confidentially reported in CIRAS, and not long after that GC were running 2+5 sets as standard.

Although it is, technically, nonsense. I have seen an analysis of HST braking performance that shows running as 2+4 is perfectly safe at 125mph, provided there are no isolated brakes in the formation.

 

[rjchapma]

Looks like Hull Trains have taken a step back again today, with a reduced number of services to and from London, and some running only between Hull and Doncaster. I'm assuming one set is down to 3 engines again.