Hunt for woman who 'burst into train driver's cabin to complain about delays'

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Saperstein, 8 Aug 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. bramling

    bramling Established Member

    Messages:
    6,475
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2012
    Location:
    Hertfordshire / Teesdale
    Excellent post.

    The driver is there to drive the train, and to drive the train 100% safely 100% of the time, 99% not being good enough. If the driver feels flustered or shaken up then they’re quite reasonably within their rights not to continue. I don’t think that’s fragile, more being conscientious.
     
  2. farleigh

    farleigh Member

    Messages:
    487
    Joined:
    1 Nov 2016
    Within their rights I am sure
     
  3. Shaw S Hunter

    Shaw S Hunter Established Member

    Messages:
    2,081
    Joined:
    21 Apr 2016
    Location:
    Sunny South Lancs
    Difficult to say as it will depend on the jurisdiction with the legal authority. But in terms of aviation related incidents unless there is a suggestion of hijacking/terrorism then I think that custodial sentences are unusual. More likely the airline concerned will ban the miscreant from using their services and if an international flight is involved then there may be a deportation with appropriate stamp in the passport. As to this particular incident I have already said that I doubt that a prosecution is necessarily the right way to proceed although that was before there was a suggestion that some damage had been done to the train. I am extremely unimpressed however by posters seeking to minimise the significance of what took place. For sure conditions on the train left something to be desired though I suspect no worse than happens every day on LU but that is still no excuse for the reaction. I wonder how many of the apologists have actually worked on the railway or in some other safety-critical role?
     
  4. theageofthetra

    theageofthetra Established Member

    Messages:
    3,122
    Joined:
    27 May 2012
    I wouldn't.. These violent animals need to be dealt with.
     
  5. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

    Messages:
    1,159
    Joined:
    13 Oct 2018
    Location:
    Loading...
    Or even on the mainstream news, such as this event?...

    -Peter
     
  6. Typhoon

    Typhoon Member

    Messages:
    814
    Joined:
    2 Nov 2017
    Are you taking the mick?
     
  7. HLE

    HLE Established Member

    Messages:
    1,204
    Joined:
    27 Dec 2013
    She's probably after another platform now Jeremy Kyle has been taken off air.
     
  8. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

    Messages:
    1,159
    Joined:
    13 Oct 2018
    Location:
    Loading...
    Probably.

    -Peter
     
  9. Amanda

    Amanda Member

    Messages:
    123
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2018
    I live in Hucknall and have travelled that line a lot, usually at rush hour. It gets incredibly crowded.

    It also sometimes does get stopped between Bulwell and Hucknall - on one such occasion the driver actually came out of his cab and apologised to everyone within earshot, telling them he was embarrassed at the level of service!

    It is also single track in that section, which doesn't help.

    And I've been on that line many times and been unable to hear announcements. You can sometimes tell the guard is making them but can't hear them.

    I would also say that the general public does not, in general, realise the safety implications unless the train is in motion. I'm betting the woman thought that because they were stopped, it would be safe to interact with the driver.

    One other thing to mention about the Robin Hood Line services.... On Friday and Saturday evenings, passengers are banned from taking alcohol on board and the last couple of times I travelled at those times (and I mean after 6pm, not even as late as 10pm!) there are security guards who, last time I travelled, actually boarded the train and travelled on it. It is *that* sort of train. It has been a year or two since I got the train back at that time of the week so I don't know if that's still common practice.

    I'm not excusing the woman's behaviour because I don't think she should have done what she did and none of us know the full story but... I've been on there when it's been unbearably hot and crowded with inaudible announcements. If you couldn't contact the guard and there was the possibility of someone becoming extremely ill, I could see why you would think knocking on the door of the driver's door might help. But if there were no answer I would have probably called 999 if it were that serious.
     
  10. Geezertronic

    Geezertronic Established Member

    Messages:
    3,573
    Joined:
    14 Apr 2009
    Location:
    Birmingham
    I can't believe that some people are condoning the behaviour of this individual... I am sure that if the individual was a middle-aged man there would be a lot more condemnation of the individuals behaviour
     
  11. Skimpot flyer

    Skimpot flyer Member

    Messages:
    411
    Joined:
    16 Nov 2012
    Something got me started...
    No, seriously, I once witnessed a driver getting verbal abuse from a disgruntled passenger, and the driver told the dispatch staff at Brighton that the train was coming out of service. The driver was delayed on an inbound service to Brighton, and had made his way round to our platform, and was in the process of getting the electrostar ready. I know that it can be a minute or two before the doors can be released, but the impatient guy started to harangue the driver.
    I fully support the driver’s reaction. If stress had led him to have a lapse of concentration, leading to an accident, he would likely be held blameworthy.
     
    Last edited: 9 Aug 2019
  12. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

    Messages:
    1,159
    Joined:
    13 Oct 2018
    Location:
    Loading...
    Exactly. The drivers and other members of staff on our railways are expected to receive and put up with all sorts of both physical and verbal abuse and still carry out their jobs as normal, which isn't acceptable.

    -Peter
     
  13. muz379

    muz379 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,753
    Joined:
    23 Jan 2014
    Its nothing to do with being fragile . It is about being professional . If something like this is playing on your mind then you are much more likely to make a mistake , this could cause a serious incident which could stay on your record for some time . If you are distracted then you are trained and expected to speak up and make it clear regardless of the impact this will have on service delivery . Trying to explain away an incident as distraction after the fact will in most cases simply land you in more trouble .

    A drivers primary role is not dealing with disruptive passengers like this , nor are they given any training or assessed in doing so .

    That coupled with the fact that not all drivers are the same , some might take something like this in their stride perfectly well perhaps because of previous job experience or just who they are as a person others may well play it over in their mind a little more .
     
  14. TheEdge

    TheEdge Established Member

    Messages:
    3,202
    Joined:
    29 Nov 2012
    Location:
    Norwich
    That's the thing. I spent enough time on the receiving end of this sort of behaviour as a guard to not let it bother me anymore. While that's a fairly depressing indication of what life as traincrew can be it means unless I was physically assaulted or someone started being personally insulting I doubt I'd stop the job over it.

    But for others I can fully understand why an angry earfull might prove too much of a distraction.
     
  15. Darandio

    Darandio Established Member

    Messages:
    7,198
    Joined:
    24 Feb 2007
    Location:
    Redcar
    Both of you just won the internet.
     
  16. Arctic Troll

    Arctic Troll Established Member

    Messages:
    9,476
    Joined:
    12 Sep 2013
    Location:
    Newcastle upon Tyne
    Ah, that explains the Open Train Times data, thank you very much.

    And in that case the delay was 10 minutes (after a scheduled 10 minute wait), so my nderstandingis rapidly vanishing!
     
  17. sprunt

    sprunt Member

    Messages:
    613
    Joined:
    22 Jul 2017
    Is it alleged that the cab intruder was also responsible for this? I understand if you aren't in a position to say.
     
  18. sprunt

    sprunt Member

    Messages:
    613
    Joined:
    22 Jul 2017
    Just going on the facts available there.
     
  19. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

    Messages:
    1,159
    Joined:
    13 Oct 2018
    Location:
    Loading...
    I can't understand the reason for your post? I think you'll find these are all reasonable thoughts - if something such as a police investigation worked in the way people on here are saying this thread "should" work, nothing would be solved!

    -Peter
     
  20. Panupreset

    Panupreset Member

    Messages:
    144
    Joined:
    8 May 2015
    If she had forced her way into the flight deck of an airliner she would be in very very serious trouble. Undoubtedly she would be going to prison.

    But as it’s a train cab it’s all ok...

    Given the current terror threat is ‘severe’ and the never ending ‘if you see something that doesn’t look right’ announcements and internal security briefings, anyone attempting to force entry into my cab will be treated as a terror threat and will be met with an appropriate response. That is to say I would consider my life and the lives of my passengers to be in grave and imminent danger and an appropriate level of response is justified.
     
  21. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

    Messages:
    11,721
    Joined:
    30 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Milton Keynes
    I hope you have a good solicitor.
     
  22. Panupreset

    Panupreset Member

    Messages:
    144
    Joined:
    8 May 2015
    Given a passenger was arrested in possession of a 21inch machete on one of our trains recently, you can’t be too careful.
     
  23. Peter C

    Peter C Established Member

    Messages:
    1,159
    Joined:
    13 Oct 2018
    Location:
    Loading...
    I have a feeling that this situation may be dealt with as just being a case of a woman forcing her way into a train cab in an angry rage, and not a woman forcing her way into a train cab to commit some horrible act of terrorism.

    -Peter
     
  24. Amanda

    Amanda Member

    Messages:
    123
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2018
    I used to work in a call centre for an airline and once had a passenger on the phone to me, running late and unable to check in at the desk, as he somehow managed to get through security and as far as the gate without a boarding pass. It was a bus to the aircraft and he even managed to get on *that*, but the police appeared (so he told me, and he also said he was hiding from them) and suddenly the line went dead. I called passenger handling at the airport in question a few minutes later to discuss it with them and expecting him to have been carted off to the local police station where they'd throw the book at him - this being only a couple of years after September 11th as well - only to be told he'd been rebooked onto the next flight.

    My point is, I thought he'd committed a really serious offence but in the end the local police (in Germany) and the airport staff were happy to let him continue his journey.

    With my previous post by the way, I was playing devil's advocate somewhat. I don't think for one second she had the right to do what she did, however I can understand some of the circumstances, assuming she was being truthful. But, like I said, I would have called 999 before I kicked in the driver's cab door!

    I don't know if anyone has come forward to support her side of the story - if it was that packed, there must have been witnesses.
     
  25. bramling

    bramling Established Member

    Messages:
    6,475
    Joined:
    5 Mar 2012
    Location:
    Hertfordshire / Teesdale
    Realistically, I don't have a problem with her getting off with a telling off - *providing she appreciates that she dealt with the situation wrongly, and would do things differently next time*. One element which is slightly troubling is that based on the newspaper interview it still seems like she feels she did no wrong.
     
  26. Eccles1983

    Eccles1983 On Moderation

    Messages:
    527
    Joined:
    4 Sep 2016

    The law is clear in this. You can use force to defend yourself or another - by using violence to secure entry to a restricted area she crossed a threshold. The driver would of in the circumstances been legally entitled to use force to repel her from a safety critical area to defend himself. Now defending himself could of taken the form of pushing her, or the door back. If she resisted then a strike could of been administered in order to secure the door.

    The TOC wouldn't be happy, but legally the driver would be fine.

    No court in the land would find against the driver.

    A bit extreme but I'd be happy going to court if I had done the above.
     
  27. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

    Messages:
    11,721
    Joined:
    30 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Milton Keynes
    I read the post as one suggesting lethal force may be used, because of the suggestion that if anyone unauthorised comes into the cab under any circumstances then the poster would interpret it as a terror threat. An appropriate level of response to a situation where you or others' life is at risk from an intruder is to take action up to and including killing them.

    I don't think it is reasonable to suggest that any intruder into the cab is a terror threat. The use of violence or lethal force against anyone coming into a secure area cay only be justified in the unique context in which it happens. Anyone using violence or lethal force against an unarmed woman in a crop top after she's been battering the door complaining about delays should expect to find themselves on the wrong side of a jury.
     
  28. Kingspanner

    Kingspanner Member

    Messages:
    50
    Joined:
    17 Jul 2019
    Location:
    Dinsdale
    Before this goes another inch I would urge everyone to look at the CPS website for Self Defence. This will save someone having to quote the law later.
     
  29. Clayton

    Clayton Member

    Messages:
    119
    Joined:
    15 Apr 2018
    Oh for a like button! Very good
     
  30. Eccles1983

    Eccles1983 On Moderation

    Messages:
    527
    Joined:
    4 Sep 2016

    I'm afraid that's simply not the case. (Well the violence bit anyway)

    Killing her would be a bit much, but would a person of reasonable firmness understand if the driver punched her in the face? Absolutely.

    I dealt with this type of thing for years. It is not a deciding factor her dress standards.

    The scenario of an irate person breaking into a locked and secure area would satisfy many a court that the driver would be placed in immidate fear of violence. Then a slap around the chops would be acceptable.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page