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Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Saperstein, 8 Aug 2019.
And yet you do ?
A railway employee if attacked is trained to retreat to a place of safety, on board a train that's the driving cabs. If someone breaks into them you're suddenly in a tiny space with someone who may be intent on doing you harm so personally I wouldn't be hanging around spending much time judging their intent and asking questions. Particularly as you have no further retreat options.
I've only had it happen to me once when a scummer off his head on drugs was trying to attack a colleague I'd ended up sheltering in the front cab with the driver and I. I made it quite clear to this chap that if he succeeded in breaking through the door I was going to hit him with the fire extinguisher as soon as it opened. As it happens a large group of football fans mobbed him and ejected him to the platform where he shortly afterwards assaulted a police officer attempting to arrest him.
Would I have killed him if he'd broken in? Who knows, being entirely serious. I certainly would have had no bones about hitting him without further warning.
The driver in question is one of the most mild mannered individuals I know, luckily perhaps for her.
If she had done this on a plane, she would have immediately been restrained by the crew, the plane would be diverted to the nearest available airport if it was in the air where the local authorities would arrest and charge her. The best she could hope for in these circumstances would be a hefty fine to cover the full cost of the delay caused, which in the case of a flight would be tens or even hundreds of thousands of pounds.
And to those condoning her actions I say simply this, if you were the driver would you tolerate this kind of action? If your answer is yes then please never apply to work on the railways, or for that matter any job where your full concentration is needed for the entirety of your working day.
Who condoned her actions?
I think this comparison is not exactly helpful.
If a marauder breaks into the flight deck of a 'plane in flight, if he then incapacitates the pilots or damages the controls, the 'plane won't be able to land safely and likely everyone on board will die, and maybe people on the ground too.
If a marauder attacks a bus driver when the bus is in motion, the passengers, drivers and passengers of other vehicles and pedestrians may be injured or killed.
If a marauder breaks into the cab of a train in motion, if he then incapacitates the driver or damages the controls, the train will likely come to a halt fairly quickly and no-one will be injured or killed.
So it's quite logical that the penalties for the 'plane situation are much more severe than the other two.
I suspect bus drivers are routinely threatened every evening in this country and have to keep on driving, with the perpetrators not getting the kind of police interest that the lady in this case has garnered.
I can't help thinking that the lowly passenger has no such place of refuge. If any drivers here hear someone banging furiously on their door, yelling "let me in!", I hope they try and ascertain whether it might be a passenger trying to escape from a nutter, and not necessarily the nutter himself...
And just to make it clear - I'm not condoning anything.
I wasn't comparing scenarios, I was responding to a post on what would happen if a cockpit door was forced.
There was one noticeable contributor with an historical anti-Union, pro Government bias earlier in this thread finding any tiny excuse to hammer the driver and exonerate the intruder.
Without in any way condoning the woman’s behaviour I will relate a story from quite a few years ago, around the time of privatisation. I think that I may have posted it before in another thread.
One morning I was a ‘passenger’ (commuting to work) on a Great Northern EMU from Peterborough to King’s Cross, operated under DOO conditions in the days when mobile phones were still rare. The train was pretty full and a fellow passenger collapsed with what appeared to be a heart attack. As a trained first aider I took control of the situation, warned everybody else NOT to operate the passcom in the middle of nowhere then assessed and stabilised the casualty. After sorting out ventilation, recovery position and so on and identifying another ‘sensible’ passenger who could monitor their condition I then ran forward to the front bulkhead and, after knocking on the door, identified myself as off-duty rail staff and shouted out the situation to the driver. He admitted me to the cab as we ran on at around 100mph and we agreed a plan of action. The driver would radio King’s Cross Signalling Centre for a clear run and request an ambulance. I would return to the casualty and obviously advise further if their condition worsened.
We then enjoyed a perfect expedited run with all other trains sidetracked as necessary and ran in early to Platform 1 where an ambulance was waiting on the Platform (as was possible in those days). The ill passenger was handed over to the paramedics and everything worked out fine.
I am glad that the driver didn’t slam on the brakes, beat me over the head with a fire extinguisher and have me arrested before finding out why I was knocking.
It does happen.
And here's one which resulted in all of the people on the bus being killed after a hysterical passenger breached the cab area -
People need to keep their distance from the person in control of a vehicle, whatever type it is. Breaking into the cab of a train is never acceptable unless there's a concern for the driver's welfare. If not, passengers don't need to be breaking into any cab.
Oh - apologies.
But you are right- breaking into the cab of a train, or disturbing the driver of any vehicle, us completely stupid, idiotic and is extremely dangerous.
To be fair knocking on the door and explaining that you're railway staff and there is a problem is much different to kicking the door in having shouted at it for a bit
There's a standard announcement a signaller can make on DOO services in fact in the event they can't contact the driver that railway staff in the area should understand which is an instruction to go and check they're OK - you wouldn't kick the door in until you had made sure there was a problem though
If a driver hears banging on their door they would have to be stark raving mad to open it, especially if the train is in motion!
It is not the job of a train driver to referee drunken arguments and make judgements about who is or isn’t a nutter.
It’s true that passengers have no refuge, a fact that should be carefully considered before entering into conflict with any fellow travellers (see the “feet on seats” thread!).
Absolutely bang on. 100% correct.
I was in the police for 15 years and told not to stereotype but this 'lady' looks like the sort of candidate who would have been ideal on stage in front of Jeremy Kyle! I bet she's got a gob on her bigger than the Mersey Tunnel and her rail fare and lifestyle is funded for by the tax payer.
If she has been creating on the train and having a do at the driver then the powers that be should throw the book at her. The cabin of a train is out of bounds to anyone. If she had done this in the cockpit of a plane then she would have been frog marched off the plane by air marshalls and given a automatic jail sentence!!!
I hope the driver did give as good as he got and it was more than justified.
But the cockpit of a 'plane is far more safety-critical than the cab of a train - see my post above, Weds 18.06.. Arguably a coach-driver's driving seat is far more safety-critical than the cab of a train, but generally they don't even have a screen around them.
I hope the lady (not in quotes) is given a warning not to do it again, which will be more than sufficient.
Irrelevant comparisons to aeroplanes and coaches aside, any reasonable person would consider what she did to be both highly stupid and potentially dangerous.
It’s also most likely a criminal act - endangering a train and obstructing a carriage or engine are both possible offences (IIRC correctly a crank was jailed a few years back for entering the back cab of a Pendlolino and blowing the horn while it was in motion).
I’m mystified as to why many posters on this forum seem determined to minimise this woman’s actions.
Being ex-police I would say this woman's actions are enough to meet the threshold of an offence under the Public Order Act. The offender behaves in such a way that they cause harassment, alarm and distress which I feel has been caused on this occasion.
I get the feeling that this is probably normal behaviour for this 'lady' and no doubt she will voice her opinions in other situations when things don't go her own way.
The TOC should at least consider banning her from using their services for say a period of 12 months if the judicial system won't prosecute her.
I doubt the police have bothered doing anything tbh
Apparently the same woman has spoken to the press to put her side of the story across.
No doubt the tabloids have waved a decent cheque in front of her beforehand. She's seen the pound signs as a sure fire way to top up her benefit money!
The CCTV pictures of her really speak for themselves - no top on in a carriage full of people baring her cleavage. Typical gobby tramp who should really wind her neck in!!!
Whereas you, sir, sound like a paragon of gentle charm and sophistication. For a second I thought the late David Niven had written your post.
Except that the whole story that started this thread was about the BTP trying to identify the perpetrator, and issuing the CCTV images to help try to track her down.
I presume that their search for her will be somewhat simplified by her being named in The Sun.
And in other threads people are asking if there Should be more power for guards.... sheesh....
She was found...
That's how she was able to give the interview and the aforementioned Sun article said she was "helping police with the investigation" (to that extent, don't remember exact wording), which sounds all happy and nice, but probably means "she is being told off".
/\ Please see this link for an interview with the lady in question.
I really don't agree with going that far in your observations of this woman; please note that no-one else has gone this far as we are polite and somewhat good-mannered individuals.
I agree that a Cockpit is more critical than a Train driving cab, it has much more security to show for it.
However, someone breaking into a driving cab is potentially capable of carrying out grave acts if they have enough basic knowledge. If someone were to aggressively barge into my driving cab, I would be genuinely concerned for my wellbeing aswell as the safety of my passengers and other trains.
All that aside, it's a private area. In any workplace this would be bang out of order. If someone was angry in a Macdonalds because their order was taking a long time and then barged their way into the kitchen and the staff only areas in an aggressive manner, I would hope the Police would be called and would treat it with the severity that it warrants. Noone should have to put up with that in their workplace.
If a terrorist or other malicious person entered the cab at the time and location that the subject of this thread apparently did, they could have caused a head on collision. I would suggest that an unauthorised person entering a cab is indeed a very serious situation.
and some countries are not quite as namby-pamby as ours when it comes to law enforcement either.
That sort of behaviour on a plane landing somwhere in asia(lets say singapore), and you are looking at a serious fine plus a couple of years in the slammer.
some other countries...trying to gain entry to the cockpit and you could possibly be shot by a sky marshall.
I think fair punishment for the lady in this case is liability for all delay repay claims the ToC faces due to her actions.That's going to be a few thousand quid.
ToC should refuse carriage for a set period if they see fit
A picture from this individual is on a Facebook page I follow - they have taken a photo, on their phone, of an iced drink, whilst doing 59mph in their car with no seat belt on. It reminded me of those H&S courses where you're invited to spot how many things are wrong with a given situation.
Oh good Lord - what next? Will she be spotted wandering down the runways at Heathrow? Humanity should just stop here. Please.
What if the reason why the train hadn't moved for 15 minutes was because the driver had passed out in the cab? (in the heat)
Then it would be `heroic mother of 2 saves train driver`
edit - although sounds like it wasn't 15 minutes and wasn't that hot