Hunt for woman who 'burst into train driver's cabin to complain about delays'

[bramling]

And what about if she’s right. And no announcements were made ? She’s a passenger. The trains going nowhere a normal person asks the driver. As they know where they are and presumably could get there. As opposed to fighting her way down the train to find a guard.

The whole thing is a mess. But the railway has to understand why people react as they do. And that they expect to be treated with the same courtesy and decency as they demand (rightly) the other way.

Reality is there's going to be situations when announcements either don't happen, or (as I have a feeling might have been the case here) aren't heard. And knowing what we do about this particular line, let alone on a Saturday night, I can well imagine why the guard might have preferred to adopt a more "rear cab based" approach. Do we *really* think the guard just sat there doing nothing for all the time?

None of this gives someone the right to force their way into a private non-public area, and (by her own admission) give the driver a load of gob. As has been posted elsewhere, she does look like a bit of a madam, and the way she presents herself in the article confirms this.

It doesn't seem clear how long the delay was nor exactly where the train was, as if it was in the platform then I don't see why she didn't just get out and knock on the driver's window.

(Edit: if we're working on the basis that the train is 2W26 2055 Nottingham to Worksop, then the train appears to have been delayed by 11 minutes between Bulwell and Hucknall. It seems more likely it was this delay where the altercation occurred, perhaps whilst the train was waiting at a signal?).

 

[Sprinter107]

I've had people walk into my cab. Never abusive though. Usually because they had forgotten it was the front of the train, and they thought there were other coaches. 150/2, 153, 156, and 158s were the units concerned. Once it was a clearly unstable person, who sat on the secondmans seat, cos "he thought it was like being on an aeroplane." All those people were tolerated. However, had a passenger burst in, like that woman, and been abusive, she would have caused the cancellation of the train, and the other passengers would have been told the reason. She could have at least had the decency to knock. There is never any excuse for thst sort of behaviour.

 

[jamesst]

I've had people walk into my cab. Never abusive though. Usually because they had forgotten it was the front of the train, and they thought there were other coaches. 150/2, 153, 156, and 158s were the units concerned. Once it was a clearly unstable person, who sat on the secondmans seat, cos "he thought it was like being on an aeroplane." All those people were tolerated. However, had a passenger burst in, like that woman, and been abusive, she would have caused the cancellation of the train, and the other passengers would have been told the reason. She could have at least had the decency to knock. There is never any excuse for thst sort of behaviour.

This exactly!

 

[Robertj21a]

I just wish people would use facts rather than biased guesswork, and even make comments on her appearance !
It may have been a silly move on her part but if it's even 50% of what she claims then I'm not at all surprised that she took action.
Rail staff on here appear to be working on the basis that she must be 100% guilty, should be charged with numerous offences, mocked for even daring to do anything when, presumably, she should have continued to swelter, worry about others and simply keep quiet.
Perhaps some rail staff should reflect on who the customer is, even if they find such people very annoying and a nuisance.

 

[gazzaa2]

It was baking hot. Her state of dishabille (if it's) from the CCTV still is no doubt due to the heat. I suggest some of you may wish to avoid casting aspersions based upon your own prejudices.

In any event, if you take her comments at face value, was the driver rude to her ? We don't know ? Were there announcements made ? Do we know that what BTP was told was accurate (i.e. can we just accept that at face value as well?) Or is the truth between ?

In high temperatures with long delays, it isn't unreasonable to want to at least know what is happening. Do you not think there is a point to what she's saying ? Or is it again that normal courtesy and informing people, even if it's only to update with "look, we really don't know either", or if it isn't in Rule 2.3 sub para 4.5 addendum B (in an adenoidal voice) then the driver doesn't have to do it. It's common sense. Something all of us claim to have, but often which we fail to recognise when we don't.

Asinine Derogatory comments about the woman's appearance are hardly doing some posters any favours.

Not condoning how far she went but it's very stressful for a lot of people being stuck on a busy train, especially in very hot or cold conditions. That's when the train manager/guard needs to step up and earn their money, it's worse when you're not kept informed.

People don't always act rationally in times of high stress. That's why you get people pulling the chord and walking down live wired tracks.

 

[Saperstein]

I just wish people would use facts rather than biased guesswork, and even make comments on her appearance !
It may have been a silly move on her part but if it's even 50% of what she claims then I'm not at all surprised that she took action.
Rail staff on here appear to be working on the basis that she must be 100% guilty, should be charged with numerous offences, mocked for even daring to do anything when, presumably, she should have continued to swelter, worry about others and simply keep quiet.
Perhaps some rail staff should reflect on who the customer is, even if they find such people very annoying and a nuisance.

I think what’s annoying everyone is the sheer fact she barged into the drivers cab, (that fact is not in dispute!) what if she had done that on an aircraft?

If she felt she needed staff assistance she should have sought out the guard or even knocked on the drivers door,
Not just barge in, and if all else failed she could have just pulled the nearest passcom handle.

Saperstein.

 

[bramling]

Not condoning how far she went but it's very stressful for a lot of people being stuck on a busy train, especially in very hot or cold conditions. That's when the train manager/guard needs to step up and earn their money, it's worse when you're not kept informed.

People don't always act rationally in times of high stress. That's why you get people pulling the chord and walking down live wired tracks.

We don’t know that an announcement wasn’t made. Using my experience and imagination it’s possible to imagine what the atmosphere on a typical Saturday night Robin Hood Line service is like, and I bet the on-board environment was far from resembling a library.

So many times I’ve heard people moan about lack of announcements when the reason they haven’t heard them is because they’ve all been shouting and screaming away.

Looking at the train schedule it seems the delay wasn’t quite as much as is being implied. 11 minutes late arriving at Hucknall, and presumably some of these minutes are accounted for by the woman’s antics.

 

[LordCreed]

The train involved was 2W26, the 20:55 Nottingham to Worksop

The train was 11' minutes late arriving at Hucknall.

Whilst I sympathise with those trapped on a train for an extended period of time, it appears that this case the passenger was not waiting for an extended period of time, and it certainly wasn't the middle of a summers day. In addition, according to historical weather site it was only 14 degrees.

Make of it as you will..

 

[Eccles1983]

She's lucky the door didn't get kicked at her.

I've done it defensively and instinctively when some drunkard barged into my cab, after being told several times that it wasn't a toilet.

It's a secure area, there is no defence or reason for anyone except train crew ever entering it. The entire reason for passcoms and CFA is to stop idiots thinking this is a suitable way of contacting staff.

Any "enthusiast" or otherwise trying to defend her actions should be treated with utter distain.

 

[ainsworth74]

I understand that rail staff will immediately jump in to blame her, and they may be right to do so, but none of us know the facts.

It's not just rail staff who are blaming her...

 

[Bromley boy]

She’s a passenger. The trains going nowhere a normal person asks the driver. As they know where they are and presumably could get there. As opposed to fighting her way down the train to find a guard.

That’s news to me, after several years of driving trains with up to 1,000 people on them. Nobody has once knocked on the door to ask me anything, far less forced their way into the cab!

I would suggest that nobody in full possession of their facilities, who regularly travels by train, would consider it normal to ask the driver anything.

Perhaps some rail staff should reflect on who the customer is, even if they find such people very annoying and a nuisance.

The “customer” (do you mean passenger?) in this case is someone who has more than likely committed one or more criminal offences.

Or should the customer always be right?!

Whatever the circumstances, any normal person of reasonable intelligence would pull a passcom, rather than barging into a live driving cab and verbally attacking/assaulting a driver.

Not just barge in, and if all else failed she could have just pulled the nearest passcom handle.

Precisely!

 

[Highlandspring]

If you tried to enter an aeroplane cockpit to remonstrate with the pilots you'd end up with your hands cable tied together, being met by armed police and a lifetime ban from flying....

 

[Peter C]

Reality is there's going to be situations when announcements either don't happen, or (as I have a feeling might have been the case here) aren't heard. And knowing what we do about this particular line, let alone on a Saturday night, I can well imagine why the guard might have preferred to adopt a more "rear cab based" approach. Do we *really* think the guard just sat there doing nothing for all the time?

None of this gives someone the right to force their way into a private non-public area, and (by her own admission) give the driver a load of gob. As has been posted elsewhere, she does look like a bit of a madam, and the way she presents herself in the article confirms this.

It doesn't seem clear how long the delay was nor exactly where the train was, as if it was in the platform then I don't see why she didn't just get out and knock on the driver's window.

(Edit: if we're working on the basis that the train is 2W26 2055 Nottingham to Worksop, then the train appears to have been delayed by 11 minutes between Bulwell and Hucknall. It seems more likely it was this delay where the altercation occurred, perhaps whilst the train was waiting at a signal?).

(My bold)
There have been many cases in the past when someone has said that there were no announcements only to be found lying because they didn't hear them - so many it would take me years to write them down! There is no reason for as to why this incident is not another one of those cases.
The guard, unless they were sick of their job and wanted to be fired, would not have just sat around. They would have made announcements. They wouldn't have been updating passengers every second, but every few minutes would suffice.
I have seen the photos of Mrs. Buchanan on the Nottingham Post article, and, as bad as it may make me sound, I'm going to agree here. In all honesty, the way she appears in the two CCTV images does speak for itself. People may say I'm horrible for saying this, but I think we can all say that we think the same thing.
RTT is showing the following for the 2W26 2053 Nottingham - Mansfield Woodhouse:


-Peter
The train was only 6 mins late by the time it got to

 

[Bromley boy]

The train involved was 2W26, the 20:55 Nottingham to Worksop

The train was 11' minutes late arriving at Hucknall.

Whilst I sympathise with those trapped on a train for an extended period of time, it appears that this case the passenger was not waiting for an extended period of time, and it certainly wasn't the middle of a summers day. In addition, according to historical weather site it was only 14 degrees.

Make of it as you will..

Well that kicks even the most spurious defence of her actions well and truly into touch.

I wonder if those who were bending over backwards upthread to justify her actions will now condemn her behaviour!?

 

[Peter C]

If you tried to enter an aeroplane cockpit to remonstrate with the pilots you'd end up with your hands cable tied together, being met by armed police and a lifetime ban from flying....

Exactly. A train cab may be less high-tech than a plane cockpit, but you would still endanger the safety of all onboard by entering it and causing distress and disturbance.

-Peter

 

[Clayton]

The driver certainly got an eyeful!

 

[Peter C]

Well that kicks any possible defence of her actions well and truly into touch.

I wonder if those who were bending over backwards upthread to justify her actions will now condemn her behaviour!?

They probably won't!
The thing is, Mrs. Buchanan has probably done something stupid, either because she is in an already bad mood or for some other unknown reason, and was trying to justify it to the press by taking what are known as "artistic liberties" with her side of the story. If there is credible evidence that she was right, that changes things once more.

-Peter

 

[Robertj21a]

I think what’s annoying everyone is the sheer fact she barged into the drivers cab, (that fact is not in dispute!) what if she had done that on an aircraft?

If she felt she needed staff assistance she should have sought out the guard or even knocked on the drivers door,
Not just barge in, and if all else failed she could have just pulled the nearest passcom handle.

Saperstein.

She claims she knocked on the door but got no response.
Few people on here appear to be interested in anything she has claimed, far more bothered with trying to find enough things to charge her with.
This episode, even if she was in the wrong, rather confirms what many passengers feel about the service they receive during stressful situations.

 

[Peter C]

The Nottingham Post article says....

She said the driver then shouted at her, which led to her shouting back at him in a "state of panic".

...in relation to when she got into the cab. She says the driver shouted at her, which, if he did, he shouldn't have, but I suspect he may have been a bit annoyed about the whole incident and someone coming into his cab may have been the last straw for him. In no way here am I defending the driver shouting at the passenger if he did do such a thing.

-Peter

 

[Robertj21a]

That’s news to me, after several years of driving trains with up to 1,000 people on them. Nobody has once knocked on the door to ask me anything, far less forced their way into the cab!

I would suggest that nobody in full possession of their facilities, who regularly travels by train, would consider it normal to ask the driver anything.



The “customer” (do you mean passenger?) in this case is someone who has more than likely committed one or more criminal offences.

Or should the customer always be right?!

Whatever the circumstances, any normal person of reasonable intelligence would pull a passcom, rather than barging into a live driving cab and verbally attacking/assaulting a driver.



Precisely!

If you can't understand that a passenger is also a customer of the TOC then it's not so surprising that *Customer* Service is often way down the list of rail staff priorites. Many staff are between good-excellent but it's evident from this thread that rather too many don't understand what is expected of them.

 

[Darandio]

She says the driver shouted at her, which, if he did, he shouldn't have,

He was probably quite shocked when she barged in, it's not really surprising. I'm not sure how i'd react.

 

[Peter C]

She claims she knocked on the door but got no response.
Few people on here appear to be interested in anything she has claimed, far more bothered with trying to find enough things to charge her with.
This episode, even if she was in the wrong, rather confirms what many passengers feel about the service they receive during stressful situations.

She probably didn't get a response because the driver may have been attending to other matters, such as why there was a "fault on the line" as Mrs. Buchanan said.
I think everyone here is trying to give their opinion, and, whilst you are also entitled to your opinion, they are not trying to just charge her with things. They are saying what she should and shouldn't have done based on the facts we have at the moment.
I'll agree with @Saperstein here - if she really needed assistance, whether that be for herself or someone else on the train, she should have tried to get the attention of platform staff - they were in the platform after all!

-Peter

 

[Peter C]

He was probably quite shocked when she barged in, it's not really surprising. I'm not sure how i'd react.

That's how I'd react in that situation - for all we know, the driver may have been trying to sort out safety-critical information and the last thing he would have needed in that situation is for a passenger to come barging in to his cab, which should never happen. As I have just said in a previous post (#52), if she really needed the help of a member of staff, she should have tried to get the platform staff - they were in a station and at the platform, it's not like the train stopped in the middle of nowhere!
Also, surely she must have realised that the guard was somewhere on the train? I wonder if it was a case of she thought the driver would be the best person to go to, or she couldn't be bothered to find the guard?*

-Peter

*I am fully aware that in a packed train trying to find the guard can be a difficult task. But please note that if she really needed help, she would have either gone to the platform staff or the guard, and not the driver.

 

[Peter C]

The following is from https://uk.news.yahoo.com/hunt-for-...8tbOTRtaMYw-aj_2ir5C_9R-RfAAWnYCbAtVD5l4sRBSV:

She was apparently heard on a furious rant about how the train was not moving.

Just in case anyone is interested. This makes it seem to me as though maybe something prior to this incident had angered her in some way and this was the last thing needed to tip her over the edge.

-Peter

 

[theking]

People commenting on her outfit saying it was proof she was hot.

I can say with almost certainty that was her outfit she was wearing all evening.

I have actually been on a central line train when it has been 40 degrees and after about a minute you start sweating profusely.

Unless that cctv is from a different train no way was it 35 degrees on that train for an hour.

 

[Sprinter107]

If you can't understand that a passenger is also a customer of the TOC then it's not so surprising that *Customer* Service is often way down the list of rail staff priorites. Many staff are between good-excellent but it's evident from this thread that rather too many don't understand what is expected of them.

My passengers have always been treated as I would want to be treated myself. I've also always put my passengers needs first. If the train has been standing, and anyone knocks the door, it is answered without exception, and I'll try and answer their questions as much as I can. Indeed, if I'm going to be delayed for longer than a few minutes, I'll keep the door open for any passenger that needs me, and i rarely get problems. However, somebody bursting into my cab, and being abusive is not on, and i will not tolerate it. The only time i ignore someone knocking, is when im on the phone to the signaller or control, or if the train is moving. At one time it was rare for passengers to knock the door when the train is moving, however, this is on the increase.

 

[Peter C]

People commenting on her outfit saying it was proof she was hot.

I can say with almost certainty that was her outfit she was wearing all evening.

I have actually been on a central line train when it has been 40 degrees and after about a minute you start sweating profusely.

Unless that cctv is from a different train no way was it 35 degrees on that train for an hour.

Exactly. If it had been very hot, they would have been trying to get people off the train or people would have just been getting off anyway. I too have been on the Central Line and it is a horrible experience in warm weather.

-Peter

 

[Peter C]

My passengers have always been treated as I would want to be treated myself. I've also always put my passengers needs first. If the train has been standing, and anyone knocks the door, it is answered without exception, and I'll try and answer their questions as much as I can. Indeed, if I'm going to be delayed for longer than a few minutes, I'll keep the door open for any passenger that needs me, and i rarely get problems. However, somebody bursting into my cab, and being abusive is not on, and i will not tolerate it. The only time i ignore someone knocking, is when im on the phone to the signaller or control, or if the train is moving. At one time it was rare for passengers to knock the door when the train is moving, however, this is on the increase.

I agree with this 100%. I'm not a train driver, but I understand a lot about how they do their job and how safety-critical it is for them to get things right. If someone came up to a bus driver and started hurling abuse at them, people would be annoyed and scared as it could endanger their safety on the roads. The railways are more dangerous than the roads. Maybe we should be teaching people how to act safely and properly around the railways. If you think it's alright to walk straight into the cab of a train and verbally abuse the driver, then you are wrong!

-Peter

 

[Bromley boy]

They probably won't!

I think you might be right .

If you can't understand that a passenger is also a customer of the TOC then it's not so surprising that *Customer* Service is often way down the list of rail staff priorites. Many staff are between good-excellent but it's evident from this thread that rather too many don't understand what is expected of them.

And if you can’t see how someone barging into a train cab after a 10 minute delay - thereby committing a criminal act - is not a customer service matter then there’s little point discussing it any further.

I just wish people would use facts rather than biased guesswork,

It’s increasingly obvious where the bias is coming from on this thread!

 

[Peter C]

I think you might be right .



And if you can’t see how someone barging into a train cab after a 10 minute delay - thereby committing a criminal act - is not a customer service matter then there’s little point discussing it any further.



It’s increasingly obvious where the bias is coming from on this thread!

Also, may I just reiterate that we are using the facts which are available at the moment and we are trying to make suitable comments and ideas from them.

-Peter