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Hydrogen powered trains ?

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furnessvale

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To be honest I'm somewhat non-plused about the whole business of emmisions from Rail Vehicles when it must be a small fraction of the emmisions currently from Road Transport.
For railfreight, emissions are one third of those made moving the same freight by road.

Forcing extra cost onto railfreight will only result in the transfer of (some) freight from rail to road, totally defeating the objective, if indeed the objective is what it seems.
 
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Bletchleyite

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One of the issues that still needs to be ironed out with any kind of “bi-mode” is the potential risk of back-feeding, particularly when it comes to neutral or isolated sections.

True, that should just need some kind of interlock preventing the starting of the diesel engine with the pantograph up, though. With regional units there is no need for switching on the move in the way there is with 80x.
 

Dai Corner

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As a compromise, how about DMUs with provision for straightforward addition of pantographs, transformers and big switches?
 

Bletchleyite

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As a compromise, how about DMUs with provision for straightforward addition of pantographs, transformers and big switches?

Would have to be DEMUs, but that would be a start, in the same way as some of Southern's Electrostars don't have pantographs and transformers and so are third rail only but do have a pantograph well and space for a transformer if needed later.

It's a shame the Voyagers were not built in this way, but in the late 1990s when they were designed views were rather different - that was when GNER were seriously proposing to take the wires down on the ECML, for example.
 

47802

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How many manufacturers have UK regional DMUs presently on offer other than Stadler and CAF?

That's only *one* more manufacturer to get on board to be where we are with DMUs at present, although I suppose a Diesel Electric may make it easier to covert to alternate fuel technologies at a latter date.

As for range etc I think that is a quirk of the FLIRT. I see no particular reason why a 3 x 23/24m unit with the diesel gubbins on the end coaches and the electric gubbins on the middle coach (and traction motors on all of them fed from your choice of either) would be much different from a regular DMU in those ways.

OK, no 2-car units. But that's probably no bad thing.

But overall the choice is limited at present and if for instance EMT want new trains for its regional services in the next franchise I don't see Bi-modes as being much use on those routes, a DMU seems the most obvious choice at present.

I'm not against Bi-modes by any means the railway could I expect significantly reduce emissions by eliminating Diesel under the Wires running, but I expect the greatest benefit will be on busy longer distance routes, you've got IET coming to fix that on the East Coast but then you have still got XC and Virgin West Coast Voyagers with considerable under the wires on Diesel.
 
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Bletchleyite

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But overall the choice is limited at present and if for instance EMT want new trains for its regional services in the next franchise I don't see Bi-modes as being much use on those routes, a DMU seems the most obvious choice at present.

I'm not against Bi-modes by any means the railway could I expect significantly reduce emissions by eliminating Diesel under the Wires running, but I expect the greatest benefit will be on busy longer distance routes, you've got IET coming to fix that on the East Coast but then you have still got XC and Virgin West Coast Voyagers with considerable under the wires on Diesel.

Yes, I think XC absolutely needs a bi-mode fleet replacement at the next refranchising. Class 802s or FLIRT 200s would do the job, I suspect the former would be preferable as there are already plenty in the UK so it's not a new design. Another option would be some kind of locomotive haulable EMU (or even LHCS), though that didn't work well for VTWC so a bi-mode MU is likely to be preferred. They should also be longer than the Voyagers, 7x26m would probably be about right.

Northern also have a good number of routes ideal for bi-modes - Windermere and Barrow are the most obvious, but any DMU that goes via the Manchester "city line" runs under the wires to some extent (and getting the diesel fumes out of the cities is definitely a worthwhile thing) - so for EMT it would arguably make more sense to cascade nearly-new 195s and order a new bi-mode fleet for Northern.

VTWC is an interesting one and there is more than one option. You could order bi-modes to use on the North Wales services (they aren't actually *needed* on anything else as such other than diversions for which there are other options). Or North Wales could be served differently, such as running onto the Chiltern line instead, with the slower service made up for by more reasonable fares and perhaps an hourly through service to Holyhead (which would have the advantage of simplifying the timetable to a consistent hourly pattern and improving the direct Birmingham service). This latter service could be operated using a new build of Class 68s on Mk5s, with the Class 68 able to be replaced in the event of electrification or new power systems being developed.
 

xotGD

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In addition to hydrogen, another alternative fuel to diesel is Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG). It has a good energy density and is much cleaner burning than diesel. It can either be used neat in a spark ignition engine or, by adding a bit of diesel to initiate combustion, in a compression ignition engine. There is a lot of interest in LNG in the marine sector and it is used in some rail applications already - a quick google search illustrates examples in Russia, USA and a bog-unit running in Spain.
 

Bletchleyite

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In addition to hydrogen, another alternative fuel to diesel is Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG). It has a good energy density and is much cleaner burning than diesel. It can either be used neat in a spark ignition engine or, by adding a bit of diesel to initiate combustion, in a compression ignition engine. There is a lot of interest in LNG in the marine sector and it is used in some rail applications already - a quick google search illustrates examples in Russia, USA and a bog-unit running in Spain.

It's quite often used for buses in Switzerland, FWIW. Much better for cities, but of course still not carbon neutral due to coming from dead dinosaurs.
 

Mikey C

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It's quite often used for buses in Switzerland, FWIW. Much better for cities, but of course still not carbon neutral due to coming from dead dinosaurs.

Removing nasty diesel emissions, rather than being carbon neutral, are a major driver behind getting rid of of diesel trains (and cars and buses)

After all it's not as if by 2040 all our electricity will come from green sources, lots of it will still be generated by conventional gas power stations
 

Bletchleyite

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Removing nasty diesel emissions, rather than being carbon neutral, are a major driver behind getting rid of of diesel trains (and cars and buses)

True; this is why small turbocharged and supercharged petrol engines are presently in favour for cars. You could I suppose build PEMUs (the lack of torque of typical petrol engines would probably make mechanical transmission infeasible), but the increased risk in the event of accident may be a showstopper.
 

D365

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As a compromise, how about DMUs with provision for straightforward addition of pantographs, transformers and big switches?

You do realise the bi-mode capability of a diesel fleet relies on it being motor-driven. For example the “proposed” conversion of the SWR 158/159s would not have been feasible even when new.
 

Bletchleyite

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You do realise the bi-mode capability of a diesel fleet relies on it being motor-driven. For example the “proposed” conversion of the SWR 158/159s would not have been feasible even when new.

Yes, it'd need to be a DEMU. What it would essentially be is a third-rail EMU but with engines and generators to supply the 750VDC but no shoes. But a pantograph well and underframe mounting for a transformer already present.
 

Roger100

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'Taking all diesel trains off the tracks by 2040' will certainly have an impact on the financing cost of such trains! Do the IEP builders know that the plan is to replace the diesel power-packs with batteries? And what about locomotives?
That's not what he said. Reading the quote the minister referred to diesel-only trains.
 

Dai Corner

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You do realise the bi-mode capability of a diesel fleet relies on it being motor-driven. For example the “proposed” conversion of the SWR 158/159s would not have been feasible even when new.

Yes. I was suggesting that future new DMUs could be built with possible conversion to EMUs or bi-modes in mind.

As a bit of 'fantasy engineering' would any traction engineers like to comment on the possibility of replacing Diesel engines and fuel tanks with electric motors and transformers in DMMUs or DHMUs?
 

InTheEastMids

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After all it's not as if by 2040 all our electricity will come from green sources, lots of it will still be generated by conventional gas power stations

However, the BEIS projection is that the CO2 intensity of electricity will more than halve by the early 2030s*, so diesel trains will look very high CO2 compared to electric. If a CO2 price is applied to diesel, this would tend to push the case for electrification

*Page 36 of this doc.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ted_energy_and_emissions_projections_2017.pdf

Diesel fuel is 48MJ/kg and 38.5 MJ/l
Lithium ion batteries are about 0.5 and 2

I.e batteries are a very large and heavy way of storing energy compared with fossil fuels

This is, of course, entirely true - but it's a false comparison to make.
Firstly, electric drive efficiency will get you about twice as far per MJ than a traditional diesel engine
Secondly, you can get quite a bit of energy back with regenerative braking, rather than using rheostatic braking to warm up the sky (I've seen 17% for 390s)
Thirdly, there's no need to lug a diesel engine about, which on a 22X means >2 tonnes of battery before there's any weight penalty

And the final major point is that nobody would be expecting a BEMU to go 1-2 days between refuelling, you'd use them on routes where they could be recharged from existing electrification.

Back on topic - the above is relevant because - taking in the high cost of sustainable hydrogen - it starts to push the opportunity for hydrogen trains further and further and further towards the fringes of the network.
 

Roger100

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I am uncertain as to how transformer/control electronics can solve the basic problem of a diesel engine of less than 1000bhp being able to match the power output of, say, 4000bhp in pure electric mode.
The Class 88 has, I think, the lowest output diesel engine in the range of similar locos. Other have much larger diesel engines. So we shouldn't assume the Class 88 is typical of this type of locomotive.
 

furnessvale

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The Class 88 has, I think, the lowest output diesel engine in the range of similar locos. Other have much larger diesel engines. So we shouldn't assume the Class 88 is typical of this type of locomotive.
Exactly my point. Playing about with transformer/control electronics is no substitute for a larger diesel engine.
 

Bletchleyite

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Exactly my point. Playing about with transformer/control electronics is no substitute for a larger diesel engine.

Indeed. Though nothing says that you can't make a locomotive capable of, say, 125mph on OHLE and 100mph on diesel, which would be suitable for most UK use-cases, particularly now the rump GWML is being wired, making such a locomotive plus Mk5 coaches a viable solution for, for example, XC. If the kit won't fit, just make it a bit longer so it will. Most UK locomotives are far shorter than the 20-26m of coaching stock.
 

Domh245

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As a bit of 'fantasy engineering' would any traction engineers like to comment on the possibility of replacing Diesel engines and fuel tanks with electric motors and transformers in DMMUs or DHMUs?

There is a thread where the potential conversion of 158/159s (DMHUs) to bi-modes is discussed, or rather, everyone took turns to say "what a stupid idea"
 

furnessvale

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That's not what he said. Reading the quote the minister referred to diesel-only trains.
Over and above that, it is phrased as an aspiration, not a firm commitment. Given the ability of Governments to drop firm commitments I think aspirations are well down the pecking order!
 

43096

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Over and above that, it is phrased as an aspiration, not a firm commitment. Given the ability of Governments to drop firm commitments I think aspirations are well down the pecking order!
There's probably a "Yes, Minister" sketch about the difference.....

Can just imagine Sir Humphrey explaining it!
 

furnessvale

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Indeed. Though nothing says that you can't make a locomotive capable of, say, 125mph on OHLE and 100mph on diesel, which would be suitable for most UK use-cases, particularly now the rump GWML is being wired, making such a locomotive plus Mk5 coaches a viable solution for, for example, XC. If the kit won't fit, just make it a bit longer so it will. Most UK locomotives are far shorter than the 20-26m of coaching stock.
Yes, I think most, if not all, bi-mode locos world wide have greater capability in electric mode than diesel (obviously ignoring last mile units like 88s).

Agreed re making the kit a bit longer. I feel the 88s are a missed opportunity and should have been higher (diesel) bhp on Co-Co or even Co-Bo or Bo-Bo-Bo bogies.
 

Roger100

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Over and above that, it is phrased as an aspiration, not a firm commitment. Given the ability of Governments to drop firm commitments I think aspirations are well down the pecking order!
Yes. After all, a ministers influence last only until he loses his job, either at a reshuffle or election.
 

43096

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Yes, I think most, if not all, bi-mode locos world wide have greater capability in electric mode than diesel (obviously ignoring last mile units like 88s).

Agreed re making the kit a bit longer. I feel the 88s are a missed opportunity and should have been higher (diesel) bhp on Co-Co or even Co-Bo or Bo-Bo-Bo bogies.
The problem is that you are creating a phenomenally expensive loco, in a market (railfreight) that operates on thin margins. One loco can only ever be in one place at one time, so can only use one power mode at a time. You're also subject to the same issues as IEP: it's either an overweight electric or an under-powered diesel. It's a very, very niche market for such locos.

You can certainly see why the likes of GBRf are going for more of the same with Class 66 - standard designs have far less risk and cost less per unit, as evidenced in the North American diesel market (GE Evolution) and European electrics (TRAXX and Vectron).
 

coppercapped

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BIG SNIP!

Back on topic - the above is relevant because - taking in the high cost of sustainable hydrogen - it starts to push the opportunity for hydrogen trains further and further and further towards the fringes of the network.
Which is exactly where the German hydrogen fleet is going to be based. You don't get much further from the action than in the flat lands, and I mean flat lands, running out towards the North Sea northwest of Oldenburg.

(And no tunnels...!)
 

Bletchleyite

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The problem is that you are creating a phenomenally expensive loco, in a market (railfreight) that operates on thin margins. One loco can only ever be in one place at one time, so can only use one power mode at a time. You're also subject to the same issues as IEP: it's either an overweight electric or an under-powered diesel. It's a very, very niche market for such locos.

You can certainly see why the likes of GBRf are going for more of the same with Class 66 - standard designs have far less risk and cost less per unit, as evidenced in the North American diesel market (GE Evolution) and European electrics (TRAXX and Vectron).

Weren't we talking about passenger, not freight?

Though I do still think there is room for an EMU hauled by a locomotive actually designed (rather than adapted) for the purpose, with an autocoupler etc.
 

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In addition to hydrogen, another alternative fuel to diesel is Liquefied Natural Gas (LNG). It has a good energy density and is much cleaner burning than diesel. It can either be used neat in a spark ignition engine or, by adding a bit of diesel to initiate combustion, in a compression ignition engine. There is a lot of interest in LNG in the marine sector and it is used in some rail applications already - a quick google search illustrates examples in Russia, USA and a bog-unit running in Spain.
Nottingham has 30-odd, soon to be 50-odd, Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) buses. There are also quite a few in other countries, typically with large tanks on the roof of a single decker, but the use with double-deckers in Nottingham suggests the fuel tank must be quite compact. There appears to be relatively little modification compared with a standard diesel bus, and although a specialist filling station is needed the gas can just be taken from the mains. Nottingham purchase their gas from a bio-gas supplier, but as with electricity suppliers they just need to inject the appropriate amount into the grid rather than having to build a pipeline to the filling station or arrange road deliveries as would have to be done with hydrogen. Emissions are stated to be much lower and the buses slightly cheaper to run though more expensive to buy and to maintain the filling station.

i wonder if this solution is also viable for trains?
 

xotGD

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Nottingham has 30-odd, soon to be 50-odd, Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) buses. There are also quite a few in other countries, typically with large tanks on the roof of a single decker, but the use with double-deckers in Nottingham suggests the fuel tank must be quite compact. There appears to be relatively little modification compared with a standard diesel bus, and although a specialist filling station is needed the gas can just be taken from the mains. Nottingham purchase their gas from a bio-gas supplier, but as with electricity suppliers they just need to inject the appropriate amount into the grid rather than having to build a pipeline to the filling station or arrange road deliveries as would have to be done with hydrogen. Emissions are stated to be much lower and the buses slightly cheaper to run though more expensive to buy and to maintain the filling station.

i wonder if this solution is also viable for trains?
The energy density of CNG is much less than LNG. OK for cars and urban buses, but for HGVs, rail and shipping LNG is the better option. You don't need to liquefy the gas yourself - the Grain LNG terminal in Kent has a truck loading facility, so LNG can be supplied from there to the user.
 

James James

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Yes, I think XC absolutely needs a bi-mode fleet replacement at the next refranchising. Class 802s or FLIRT 200s would do the job, I suspect the former would be preferable as there are already plenty in the UK so it's not a new design. Another option would be some kind of locomotive haulable EMU (or even LHCS), though that didn't work well for VTWC so a bi-mode MU is likely to be preferred. They should also be longer than the Voyagers, 7x26m would probably be about right.
To be completely honest, the Stadler option would be better. Not only do they usually deliver on time (if you ignore the Vossloh loco acquisition), but they offer 21st century features such as platform-level entrances and cantilevered seats (whenever I travel with large bags, I am thankful for both of those features).

And they're even advertising their WINK as an all-rounder suitable for whatever energy source you want to throw at it:
http://www.stadlerrail.com/en/products/detail/wink/
 

edwin_m

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The energy density of CNG is much less than LNG. OK for cars and urban buses, but for HGVs, rail and shipping LNG is the better option. You don't need to liquefy the gas yourself - the Grain LNG terminal in Kent has a truck loading facility, so LNG can be supplied from there to the user.
But then, as with hydrogen, you're back to having to construct a national distribution network (are LNG pipelines even possible?) or accept a big increase in road deliveries. I agree diesel is usually delivered to destination by road, but it probably does most of its land journey by pipeline.
 
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