Hydrogen powered trains ?

[Emblematic]

I believe modern fuel hydrogen is treated to give visible flame for safety.

Still, if the Hindenburg disaster killed off airship travel, why do we still use jet airliners after several fiery crashes, many leaving no survivors?

The Hindenberg was the 'final nail' in what was already a dreadful safety record for rigid airships, even by the poor aviation standards of the 20s and 30s. The R101 crash had finished off interest from the UK aviation industry earlier in the decade. Live footage of an accident in progress was very rare, and would have had a disproportionate effect on the public. A plane disappearing in the countryside, with maybe some newspaper still photos of wreckage some days later, has relatively little impact even now.
I don't believe there are any common additives for H2 fuels, if anything an odorant would be most likely to enable detection of unlit leaking gas (a similar problem to natural gas.)
Fire is quite a minor concern with H2, the almost invisible flame generates almost no radiant heat, and overpressure can be safely dealt with by controlled venting. The big issue is detonation (think Fukushima Daiichi rather than Hindenberg.) H2 has one of the widest concentration ranges for both flammability and explosion, hence a small leak into a building or room can be very serious. I think that had led to the design of the Breeze conversion, keeping all of the H2 components in a separate compartment which will likely be so well ventilated that a flammable concentration cannot build up.

 

[Andy25]

I believe modern fuel hydrogen is treated to give visible flame for safety.

Still, if the Hindenburg disaster killed off airship travel, why do we still use jet airliners after several fiery crashes, many leaving no survivors?

Because airships were slow and didn't have the capacity. Didn't need much of an excuse to kill them off.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

I wonder how much heavier this Hyrdogen train will be. Obviously its going from 4 to 3 cars do thats a huge reduction. How much will the tanks and the fuel cells weigh then and will they be in the MSO? Or one of the two DTSO's I assume that all traction motors will stay unchanged in the MSO.

 

[coppercapped]

I believe modern fuel hydrogen is treated to give visible flame for safety.

Eh? How does that work, then?

(Fuel cells that work with adulterated hydrogen are, to my knowledge, practically non existent).

 

[coppercapped]

I wonder how much heavier this Hyrdogen train will be. SNIP.
How much will the tanks and the fuel cells weigh then....?

For an introduction to hydrogen storage tanks see this Wikipedia article. And for a more detailed discussion of hydrogen safety see this article.

 

[Andy25]

I wonder how much heavier this Hyrdogen train will be. Obviously its going from 4 to 3 cars do thats a huge reduction. How much will the tanks and the fuel cells weigh then and will they be in the MSO? Or one of the two DTSO's I assume that all traction motors will stay unchanged in the MSO.

New AC motors and new traction system. Lighter AC motors will offset some of the weight.

But ultimately the weight doesn't matter too much as long you get the acceleration and range needed.

 

[Charlie Smythe]

New AC motors and new traction system. Lighter AC motors will offset some of the weight.

But ultimately the weight doesn't matter too much as long you get the acceleration and range needed.

I know the traction motors are different but are they all still going to be in what will be the center car?

 

[Killingworth]

Will this Hydrogen Class 321 still its existing formation (DTCO+TSO+MSO+DTSO) Of course without the TSO as it is now a 3 car unit. So one motorcoach and then two driving trailers.

According to the piece in The Times; https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/full-steam-ahead-for-hydrogen-trains-spzchrf8s

The front and rear third of the train will be used to house hydrogen gas storage tanks.

 

[gingertom]

I know the traction motors are different but are they all still going to be in what will be the center car?

does anyone know if the transformer, pantograph and associated 25kv plant will be removed to make this a hydrogen only train? Would help reduce the weight a bit!

 

[Andy25]

I know the traction motors are different but are they all still going to be in what will be the center car?

Yes, they will remain suspension tube mounted as the current arrangement and mounted to existing pinion and gearwheel.

So 4 motors in total, not sure if it will be same AC motor as the Vossloh retraction but would make sense as you know it fits!

 

[Andy25]

does anyone know if the transformer, pantograph and associated 25kv plant will be removed to make this a hydrogen only train? Would help reduce the weight a bit!

Yes it will be hydrogen only

 

[Andy25]

According to the piece in The Times; https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/full-steam-ahead-for-hydrogen-trains-spzchrf8s

These images do it a bit of a disservice, it isn't one big tank but a bank of smaller diameter tanks.

 

[Emblematic]

These images do it a bit of a disservice, it isn't one big tank but a bank of smaller diameter tanks.

That tank looks more like a roll of newsprint. I haven't seen a pressure vessel that shape since... well, never, really. I'd expect a rack of small cylinders in this application.

 

[mwmbwls]

Reminds me of the cut-away diagrams they used to publish in "The Eagle" (but that shows my age.)

 

[Killingworth]

These images do it a bit of a disservice, it isn't one big tank but a bank of smaller diameter tanks.

I wonder who supplied the illustration because I'm sure The Times didn't make it up themselves. Whatever, it suggests no through train driver access to the passenger compartment.

 

[Emblematic]

I wonder who supplied the illustration because I'm sure The Times didn't make it up themselves. Whatever, it suggests no through train driver access to the passenger compartment.

I'd say it's the manufacturer's render overlaid with the in-house artist cutaway and helpful explanations / crayon additions put over the top. Mainly because the same render, without all the fanciful additions, is in the Telegraph.
I'd take no suggestions from the drawing whatsoever, it's not likely that the artist has any detailed knowledge at all. In fact, I'd be amazed if there wasn't crew access through the compartment, and possibly emergency access for passenger egress.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

Whether people like it or not Hydrogen is the fuel of the future. Years ago Honda did a car that could produce 100Kw of power, that's enough to power ten houses.

Its going to also be more renewable than batteries (they aren't cheap to dispose of) due to not having the same cycle issues.

Trains running on hydrogen are a more realistic long term solution than any battery powered train and could in fact totally replace diesel over time as long as the fuel distribution issues are ironed out

 

[Emblematic]

Whether people like it or not Hydrogen is the fuel of the future. Years ago Honda did a car that could produce 100Kw of power, that's enough to power ten houses.

Its going to also be more renewable than batteries (they aren't cheap to dispose of) due to not having the same cycle issues.

Trains running on hydrogen are a more realistic long term solution than any battery powered train and could in fact totally replace diesel over time as long as the fuel distribution issues are ironed out

It's probably a fuel of the future, but there are substantial obstacles that have prevented it's take up in any meaningful amount. As you say, Honda had a working prototype car years ago - but H2 cars are still vanishingly rare, and there's no real momentum to H2 adoption. BEVs, on the other hand, are picking up at an exponential rate. 4 million cars sold to date, with the next million due to be produced in the next six months. Hydrogen fuel cells are way more expensive than a comparable battery, and will also need to be recycled at end of life. For trains and commercial vehicles, the greater durability of the fuel cell may make it a better fit than a scaled-up battery, and the low energy density of the fuel is less of an issue. So it's likely that we'll see differences in fuel types across sectors, much as we have historically with petrol and diesel. Future advances in any of the technologies will alter the balance, so it's not possible to predict which will be the dominant technology at this stage.

 

[hwl]

Whether people like it or not Hydrogen is the fuel of the future. Years ago Honda did a car that could produce 100Kw of power, that's enough to power ten houses.

Its going to also be more renewable than batteries (they aren't cheap to dispose of) due to not having the same cycle issues.

Trains running on hydrogen are a more realistic long term solution than any battery powered train and could in fact totally replace diesel over time as long as the fuel distribution issues are ironed out

Technical Hydrogen isn't a fuel, it is an energy transmission vector like a charged battery

 

[xotGD]

Technical Hydrogen isn't a fuel, it is an energy transmission vector like a charged battery

It is being used in a Fuel Cell. Sounds like a fuel to me!

 

[Emblematic]

It's a secondary fuel (or secondary energy source.) It is not available as a fuel in the natural environment, but can be derived/generated from primary fuel sources.

 

[hwl]

It is being used in a Fuel Cell. Sounds like a fuel to me!

But it isn't as Emblematic point out in detail.

 

[Andy25]

It's probably a fuel of the future, but there are substantial obstacles that have prevented it's take up in any meaningful amount. As you say, Honda had a working prototype car years ago - but H2 cars are still vanishingly rare, and there's no real momentum to H2 adoption. BEVs, on the other hand, are picking up at an exponential rate. 4 million cars sold to date, with the next million due to be produced in the next six months. Hydrogen fuel cells are way more expensive than a comparable battery, and will also need to be recycled at end of life. For trains and commercial vehicles, the greater durability of the fuel cell may make it a better fit than a scaled-up battery, and the low energy density of the fuel is less of an issue. So it's likely that we'll see differences in fuel types across sectors, much as we have historically with petrol and diesel. Future advances in any of the technologies will alter the balance, so it's not possible to predict which will be the dominant technology at this stage.

Thing nobody mentions is how horribly ungreen battery production is.

With all these EV's and battery trains it's going to be just as bad for the environment as fossil fuel. Open cast mining to get the elements too.

And get used to replacing the battery pack every 8-10 years.

 

[Geoff DC]

Thing nobody mentions is how horribly ungreen battery production is.

But battery production or mining for the raw materials is not taking place in the South East or Home Counties

 

[Nick Ashwell]

And get used to replacing the battery pack every 8-10 years.

We may get round this before long with overprovisioning whoever that will be dependent on a much better cell density

 

[Emblematic]

Thing nobody mentions is how horribly ungreen battery production is.

With all these EV's and battery trains it's going to be just as bad for the environment as fossil fuel. Open cast mining to get the elements too.

And get used to replacing the battery pack every 8-10 years.

I doubt battery production has anything like the environmental impact that, for example, a single major oil spill has. Fossil fuels are only getting harder and more environmentally damaging to extract, as the 'easy pickings' are well on the way to exhaustion.
'Consumer' battery packs will be value-engineered to last the life of the vehicle in cars and LGVs. They are probably overspecified at present, to counter consumer wariness of new technology. Hence the very few reported failures - lower than major component failures on ICE vehicles. When production techniques are stabilised, battery failure will become more common but still rare (like engine or gearbox failure.) First major changes on the Model T Ford was to see what parts had never failed, and make them cheaper so they did.
Commercial and industrial users will likely have battery packs regularly remanufactured, probably on shorter timescales.

 

[6Gman]

Whether people like it or not Hydrogen is the fuel of the future. Years ago Honda did a car that could produce 100Kw of power, that's enough to power ten houses.

Its going to also be more renewable than batteries (they aren't cheap to dispose of) due to not having the same cycle issues.

Trains running on hydrogen are a more realistic long term solution than any battery powered train and could in fact totally replace diesel over time as long as the fuel distribution issues are ironed out

Some of us are old enough to remember when InterCity rail travel was predicted to face major competition from ... helicopter services criss-crossing the nation.

And in the 1950s nuclear-powered locos were the traction "of the future" according to some American engineers ...

 

[Andy25]

I doubt battery production has anything like the environmental impact that, for example, a single major oil spill has. Fossil fuels are only getting harder and more environmentally damaging to extract, as the 'easy pickings' are well on the way to exhaustion.
'Consumer' battery packs will be value-engineered to last the life of the vehicle in cars and LGVs. They are probably overspecified at present, to counter consumer wariness of new technology. Hence the very few reported failures - lower than major component failures on ICE vehicles. When production techniques are stabilised, battery failure will become more common but still rare (like engine or gearbox failure.) First major changes on the Model T Ford was to see what parts had never failed, and make them cheaper so they did.
Commercial and industrial users will likely have battery packs regularly remanufactured, probably on shorter timescales.

It's not about the batteries failing its the loss of capacity over time. You won't get a battery that lasts the life of a car, nevermind a 30 year train life.

The Toyota Prius famously took so much more energy to manufacture that for whole life energy costs it was actually worse than a fossil fuel vehicle.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact

 

[Emblematic]

It's not about the batteries failing its the loss of capacity over time. You won't get a battery that lasts the life of a car, nevermind a 30 year train life.

The Toyota Prius famously took so much more energy to manufacture that for whole life energy costs it was actually worse than a fossil fuel vehicle.
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact

We'll disagree on that (as do most of the manufactures, going by the battery warranties being offered.) The battery will lose some capacity over the life of the vehicle, just as the ICE in a conventional car loses power and efficiency. Vehicles near end-of-life are typically used less intensively than new vehicles, so this degradation is unimportant. Putting a new battery in an older vehicle will usually not be viable, just as changing the engine or gearbox is uneconomic for old vehicles.
Commercial and industrial applications are completely different, components are refurbished/overhauled far more frequently with a more intense and arduous service life. Do the diesel engines in trains last 30 years? Do they last 10? Probably not without at least one rebuild. The MTU engines fitted to HSTs have all been rebuilt at least once, and some more than that (which is beyond what was originally planned when they were fitted.)
Prius is a poor example of anything, it's interim technology which is still dependent on fossil fuel. Battery (and Hydrogen) transport is intended to allow a greater use of renewable energy in future. Throwing in a few 'what about' examples won't change that.

 

[darloscott]

Article this morning suggesting that Tees Valley area could be home to the first hydrogen units. Suggestions of ten units to be housed at a new depot either at Thornaby (DB site...) or Lackenby (the old Tata/SSI loco works I gather from the mayors Facebook page). Could be running by summer 2021.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/teesside-could-home-first-fleet-16179606

Teesside could become home to the UK's first fleet of hydrogen-powered passenger trains.
Arriva, one of Europe's leading providers of passenger transport, wants to build a major facility on Teesside - to fuel and maintain ten HMU (Hydrogen Multiple Unit) trains.

It is eyeing up potential sites at Thornaby and Lackenby, with the first ultra-green trains expected to run by June 2021.

An initial screening report has been lodged with Stockton Council, in a move that could help cement Teesside's plans to be at the "centre of the UK's growing hydrogen economy".

Tees Valley Mayor Ben Houchen has plans to bring fleet of hydrogen-powered road vehicles and refuelling stations to Teesside (Image: Teesside Live/Katie Lunn)

The Government wants to take all diesel-only trains off UK tracks by 2040.

Hydrogen as a fuel gives enough range and is potentially zero-carbon, if used alongside renewables.

And Teesside, which produces half the UK's entire hydrogen supply through its heavy industries, is seen as the natural place to start.

If the project is successful, it could be rolled out across the Northern and wider National Rail networks.

"In the longer term," Arriva's application says, "it is anticipated that this project will not only provide a solution for the Tees Valley, but that the learning from this project will have potential applications both across other ARN [Arriva Rail North] operations and the UK rail industry as a whole."

"Plans for a new maintenance and fuelling facility will be required on Teesside, in the heart of the designated operating area for the hydrogen fleet," it continue

Hydrogen-powered trains, it added, are "completely free of harmful emissions both at point of use" and also "free from the emission of nitrous oxides and particulate matter."

Hydrogen trains only have a range of around 600 miles compared to 1,500 for diesel-powered and must be refuelled daily, which means there's a need for a depot close to Teesside.

A "number of safety mitigations" would also be put in place to minimise risks, the report added.

"In the unlikely event of a hydrogen fuel leak," the report says, "the released gas will disperse upwards in to the atmosphere, where this non-toxic gas will rapidly dilute and disperse."

The project also fits in with plans by the Tees Valley Combined Authority for Teesside to become a "centre of a national hydrogen economy".

Even bin lorries on Teesside could soon be fuelled by hydrogen (Image: Rob Browne/Walesonline)

Tees Valley Mayor Ben Houchen has launched a successful £1.3m bid to bring a fleet of hydrogen cars, buses - even bin lorries - and refuelling stations - to the region

It is estimated the hydrogen sector could add up to £7bn to the region’s economy between 2018 and 2050 and create around 1,000 jobs.

An article this morning suggesting the Tees Valley area could be the first to introduce hydrogen powered units in 2021.