Hypothetical penalty fare situation

[Diab342]

After watching The Railway 24/7 episode 3 one of the RPIs confronted a passenger without a ticket he asked if the passenger could have bought a ticket online.

It brings an interesting question. If there is a broken TVM / no ticket office / no PtP machine and the guard remained in their cab is the onus on the passenger to buy a ticket on line. I don't believe it is since the passenger isn't expected to be proactive to buy a ticket but to buy one when reasonably possible (not having to seek the guard out or delay their journey when changing trains to buy a ticket). But I wonder if there are any cases or guidelines to back this up

 

[_toommm_]

The passenger can buy a ticket online, but there is nothing in the NRCoT which puts the onus on the customer to do this. Similarly, some TOCs expect you to proactively find the guard to buy a ticket, but again the onus is not on the customer to do this either.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

After watching The Railway 24/7 episode 3 one of the RPIs confronted a passenger without a ticket he asked if the passenger could have bought a ticket online.

It brings an interesting question. If there is a broken TVM / no ticket office / no PtP machine and the guard remained in their cab is the onus on the passenger to buy a ticket on line. I don't believe it is since the passenger isn't expected to be proactive to buy a ticket but to buy one when reasonably possible (not having to seek the guard out or delay their journey when changing trains to buy a ticket). But I wonder if there are any cases or guidelines to back this up

There is no obligation to use ticketing facilities other than those physically provided at your boarding station in order to lawfully board the train. Referring specifically to the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018, Regulation 6(2) makes clear that this is the case:

This paragraph applies if, at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train—
(a) there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket for that passenger’s journey;

 

[island]

There’s no requirement to buy online as far as penalty fares and byelaw offences are concerned. A passenger could, I suppose, conceivably commit a Regulation of Railways Act offence by failing to buy online, but would have to be extremely stupid and self-incriminate, e.g.:
RPI: Were you aware that it is possible to buy and use an e-ticket online for this route?
Pax: Yes
RPI: Was there a reason you didn’t do that today?
Pax: I was hoping nobody would come round...

 

[PeterC]

No ticket office / machine broken. Must you allow enough time to download and install an app, enter your card details, presumably respond to a verification email and then buy a ticket before the train arrives? I don't think so.

Once on board any ticket bought on line will be invalid anyway as it will be timed after departure.

 

[hkstudent]

There’s no requirement to buy online as far as penalty fares and byelaw offences are concerned. A passenger could, I suppose, conceivably commit a Regulation of Railways Act offence by failing to buy online, but would have to be extremely stupid and self-incriminate, e.g.:
RPI: Were you aware that it is possible to buy and use an e-ticket online for this route?
Pax: Yes
RPI: Was there a reason you didn’t do that today?
Pax: I was hoping nobody would come round...

Seems possible. But the railway bylaw doesn't have the requirement/mentioning of buying tickets online

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Seems possible. But the railway bylaw doesn't have the requirement/mentioning of buying tickets online

The Byelaws are different to RoRA. It's a hotchpotch of laws, each of which may be triggered in slightly different circumstances.

 

[hkstudent]

The Byelaws are different to RoRA. It's a hotchpotch of laws, each of which may be triggered in slightly different circumstances.

Yeah, but seems RoRA requires the proof of intention, where the threshold would be harder to be triggered...

 

[Tetchytyke]

After watching The Railway 24/7 episode 3 one of the RPIs confronted a passenger without a ticket he asked if the passenger could have bought a ticket online.

Without seeing the context, that rings huge alarm bells, even if the excuse is the classic "the queue was too long".

The rules are that ticket buying facilities must have been at the station. An online retailer is, fairly obviously, not at the station. It's not for passengers to have to carry a smartphone around just so the TOCs can avoid the cost of providing ticketing facilities.

 

[MotCO]

I also heard the RPI suggesting using Trainline, without mentioning the booking fee!

As an aside, did anyone else find the passenger, who had left his rucksack on the train, out of order in making a complaint about the actions of the guard? He was the one who left the rucksack on the train, and the guard acted with all good intentions. She was also calm when providing her details to the complainant. I hope the complaint was dismissed after two seconds.

 

[Chumba]

I also heard the RPI suggesting using Trainline, without mentioning the booking fee!

As an aside, did anyone else find the passenger, who had left his rucksack on the train, out of order in making a complaint about the actions of the guard? He was the one who left the rucksack on the train, and the guard acted with all good intentions. She was also calm when providing her details to the complainant. I hope the complaint was dismissed after two seconds.

he was just being a knob, trying to look good on TV and embarrass her, but she dealt with it very well. I,doubt he spoke like that when he was spoken to by BTP.

 

[sportzbar]

he was just being a knob, trying to look good on TV and embarrass her, but she dealt with it very well. I,doubt he spoke like that when he was spoken to by BTP.

It was definitely made for TV. A colleague of mine was there when they were "filming the incident". Took three takes apparently.....

 

[221129]

Yeah, but seems RoRA requires the proof of intention, where the threshold would be harder to be triggered...

Which in the post you quoted the hypothetical person admitted to it...

 

[cuccir]

If we imagine a regular commuter (remember those?) who every day boards at a facility-less station, and gets off at an unbarriered TVM-only station, at which the TVM doesn't sell incoming tickets. The journey is short on a busy train, and the guard only sometimes or rarely can get round. The traveller becomes known to the TOC as they are found to not have a ticket by-RPIs who attend the unbarriered arrival station every few months, but they are clearly on individual journeys not breaking the Bylaws or RoRa. I wonder if a suitably motivated TOC, if it was able to obtain the evidence that the commuter regularly made other online purchases, could make a case in court under the RoRa that the commuter was deliberately evading the fare? I wonder if this case would be stronger if they could show the traveller was provided with inforamtion on online purchasing by the RPIs? The argument would essentially be a contemporary equvialent of testing the 'pay-when-challenged' approach.

The circumstances are all a bit unlikely but I can just about imagine a prosectuion being succesful in those circumstances. Of course, the challenge would be getting the evidence that the traveller regularly made online purchases; they'd be under no obligation to provide this evidence. And clearly in these circumstances the better approach is to provide the facilities!