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Hypothetical: recognising fare dodgers

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Fawkes Cat

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I'm not sure I've put this thread in the right place: if not, it would be great if an admin would move it.

In the Disputes & Prosecutions thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-threatening-legal-action.164245, the OP told us he had mistakenly booked and travelled on a railcard ticket with no railcard. When on-train crew picked up on this, he felt it was harsh that he was charged the full fare for the journey.

Our advice was pretty consistent - namely that the railway was well within its rights to do this, and he was lucky not to have faced a bylaw prosecution or out of court settlement with costs. But we were split on whether the railway should distinguish between intentional and accidental fare dodgers, and if so, how.

In principle, it seems to me right to be more generous to people who have made a mistake (using a narrow definition of 'mistake' that does not include 'I mistakenly thought I could get away with it') rather than those who intentionally aimed to pay less. But can we reasonably expect railway staff to distinguish between someone who has made a mistake (who will honestly say 'I made a mistake') and someone who was trying it on (who will dishonestly say exactly the same)? If we rely just on the words used, the only people punished will be those who admit their guilt on challenge. If there is some sort of attitude test, then we are relying much more on the subjective judgement of revenue protection staff.
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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I'm not sure I've put this thread in the right place: if not, it would be great if an admin would move it.

In the Disputes & Prosecutions thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-threatening-legal-action.164245, the OP told us he had mistakenly booked and travelled on a railcard ticket with no railcard. When on-train crew picked up on this, he felt it was harsh that he was charged the full fare for the journey.

Our advice was pretty consistent - namely that the railway was well within its rights to do this, and he was lucky not to have faced a bylaw prosecution or out of court settlement with costs. But we were split on whether the railway should distinguish between intentional and accidental fare dodgers, and if so, how.

In principle, it seems to me right to be more generous to people who have made a mistake (using a narrow definition of 'mistake' that does not include 'I mistakenly thought I could get away with it') rather than those who intentionally aimed to pay less. But can we reasonably expect railway staff to distinguish between someone who has made a mistake (who will honestly say 'I made a mistake') and someone who was trying it on (who will dishonestly say exactly the same)? If we rely just on the words used, the only people punished will be those who admit their guilt on challenge. If there is some sort of attitude test, then we are relying much more on the subjective judgement of revenue protection staff.

As an example of the kind of 'mistake' that would be very easy to make but for which you could potentially face a penalty fare or prosecution - today I've travelled on an Advance from my home station to Luton Airport. The only reservation was from home to the London Terminal my first train went to. I had no reservation from St Pancras to Luton Airport.

A reasonable person would presume (if they can understand what an Advance even means and lets you do) that, since you have no reservation from St Pancras to Luton Airport, you may take any train. Yet this isn't the case - theoretically you couldn't take the quickest option of the East Midlands Trains service as this is a reservable train and you don't have a reservation for it. You are supposed to take the Thameslink services which are non-reservable.

How is a normal person supposed to know this? It's something I only found out fairly recently too. The way I made it onto the EMT service was by explicitly asking at the gateline whether I was authorised to take the EMT train without a reservation and of course they said yes, and equally the train manager didn't even ask to see a reservation but they could have kicked up a right stink if they wanted to go on technicalities.

All of which is to say that I don't think that rules which are unpublished or unclear should be enforced. If you want to enforce rules then you should make it amply clear. Mobile apps are not very clear that they usually storing your last-used Railcard, but they do advertise that 'Railcard discount has been applied' before buying, so if OP of the other thread didn't read this then I do think it's on him TBH.

Whereas in my case if they theoretically only want you to use non-reservable services then they should make this clear at the time of buying, or at the very least print out a 'reservation' which says that it's valid on any Thameslink train but not EMT.
 

baz962

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Thought I would add to this. I am a trainee driver, and up until a few months ago worked at the above mentioned Luton airport. Until I joined this forum I too was unaware of the byelaw's and the different ticketing rules etc. I now have a season ticket from Bedford to West Hampstead , and my mother lives in Luton. I now just jump on the train to pop to Luton to visit my mother , but the gate wierdly sometime's opens on my ticket and sometime's does not. I decided one day to ask a member of staff wether I could get off at Luton/ Luton airport parkway and was told - you shouldn't but you can!. I asked the question on this forum and was told I can . If the staff on the gateline don't know , then how are the public supposed to know. As to people making a genuine mistake, as opposed to trying it on , perhap's the toc's could start a database , not hard in this day of modern technology. One chance no excuse.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Thought I would add to this. I am a trainee driver, and up until a few months ago worked at the above mentioned Luton airport. Until I joined this forum I too was unaware of the byelaw's and the different ticketing rules etc. I now have a season ticket from Bedford to West Hampstead , and my mother lives in Luton. I now just jump on the train to pop to Luton to visit my mother , but the gate wierdly sometime's opens on my ticket and sometime's does not. I decided one day to ask a member of staff wether I could get off at Luton/ Luton airport parkway and was told - you shouldn't but you can!. I asked the question on this forum and was told I can . If the staff on the gateline don't know , then how are the public supposed to know. As to people making a genuine mistake, as opposed to trying it on , perhap's the toc's could start a database , not hard in this day of modern technology. One chance no excuse.
A one chance system would definitely be better than the current system - but what if someone feel foul of unpublished restrictions twice?
 

baz962

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You should know after the first time , my idea was not perfect , but where do you draw the line.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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You should know after the first time , my idea was not perfect , but where do you draw the line.
I agree - it is a difficult thing really. It requires the appropriate application of discretion, something which is sorely and sadly lacking in a small minority of important railway staff (eg prosecution case workers and RPIs).
 

yorkie

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... If the staff on the gateline don't know , then how are the public supposed to know....
I agree with this part of your post.

I've recently encountered gateline staff who say that even if you have a reservation or itinerary for a train, they won't let me catch it if they think it's not a valid train for my ticket, and I know several other passengers have been told the same thing. Only yesterday a Virgin Trains member of staff claimed that a Super Off Peak ticket was not valid at that time, they did not bother to look up the routeing on the ticket or the restrictions applicable to it.

Claims consisting of false and/or misleading information and denial of contractual & consumer rights are absolutely rife among gateline staff at many locations.
 

baz962

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Yes , and I still am unsure , at Luton Airport Parkway the gate's rarely open for me , so I go to the wider gate for wheelchair's , luggage etc , as that is where the staff stand , show my ticket and they don't even look , in fact the last couple of time's I have had the same lady open the gate for me without looking up from her phone.
 

najaB

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But can we reasonably expect railway staff to distinguish between someone who has made a mistake (who will honestly say 'I made a mistake') and someone who was trying it on (who will dishonestly say exactly the same)?
Reliably? No. Some people are good liars and some people don't handle stressful situations well.
 

Gareth Marston

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Throw in a fair amount of situations where one can be innocent or trying to play the system then it's never black and white.

Renaming Advance Purchase tickets to Booked Train only or else tickets:D would be a big single step to take.
 

6Gman

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Throw in a fair amount of situations where one can be innocent or trying to play the system then it's never black and white.

Renaming Advance Purchase tickets to Booked Train only or else tickets:D would be a big single step to take.

Renaming would be useful. A Virgin TM on a recent journey made an announcement along the lines of "If you have an Advanced Ticket it must be for this service; if your Advance Ticket is for any other departure it will not be valid and you will need to buy a new ticket. An Advance Ticket is one which you have purchased some weeks in advance". [my emphasis]

Which, of course, is nonsense. I can buy my Open Return weeks in advance; doesn't make it Advance! :s
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Renaming would be useful. A Virgin TM on a recent journey made an announcement along the lines of "If you have an Advanced Ticket it must be for this service; if your Advance Ticket is for any other departure it will not be valid and you will need to buy a new ticket. An Advance Ticket is one which you have purchased some weeks in advance". [my emphasis]

Which, of course, is nonsense. I can buy my Open Return weeks in advance; doesn't make it Advance! :s
And you can buy Advance tickets 10 minutes before departure on CrossCountry, or 1 hour before departure on VTWC
 

Merseysider

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One can also buy a VT Advance on the day, so yes, nonsense.

I tend to zone out Virgin’s onboard announcements as they’re either pathetically desperate wibble about the shop in Coach C still being open, or woefully incorrect and unhelpfully vague announcements about what constitutes a valid ticket.

Call an advance something distinct and clear, like I don’t know, Non-Flex?

Or is that too much common sense ;)
 

ForTheLoveOf

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One can also buy a VT Advance on the day, so yes, nonsense.

I tend to zone out Virgin’s onboard announcements as they’re either pathetically desperate wibble about the shop in Coach C still being open, or woefully incorrect and unhelpfully vague announcements about what constitutes a valid ticket.

Call an advance something distinct and clear, like I don’t know, Non-Flex?

Or is that too much common sense ;)
Ah, but if you book advance tickets through the right TIS then you can change your reservation to another train for free, assuming the same quota of advance is still available.
 

Haywain

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It requires the appropriate application of discretion, something which is sorely and sadly lacking in a small minority of important railway staff (eg prosecution case workers and RPIs).
I don't believe you have any evidence to support this assertion, other than our own prejudice.
 
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Renaming would be useful. A Virgin TM on a recent journey made an announcement along the lines of "If you have an Advanced Ticket it must be for this service; if your Advance Ticket is for any other departure it will not be valid and you will need to buy a new ticket. An Advance Ticket is one which you have purchased some weeks in advance". [my emphasis]

Which, of course, is nonsense. I can buy my Open Return weeks in advance; doesn't make it Advance! :s
They sure missed a great opportunity to throw in some humour there! "An Advance Ticket is one which... well, has "Advance" written on that slip of paper. Doesn't get much simpler than that."
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I don't believe you have any evidence to support this assertion, other than our own prejudice.
I think there have been enough articles in the press and threads on this forum which show that there is this small minority. I have a personal feeling that it may be more than a small minority, but the non-anecdotal evidence does not support this.
 

Haywain

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I think there have been enough articles in the press and threads on this forum which show that there is this small minority. I have a personal feeling that it may be more than a small minority, but the non-anecdotal evidence does not support this.
How do you know that the reports you read prove that they do not use discretion (in favour of customers) at other, unreported, times? Quite simply, you don't - which makes your claim nonsense.
 

Rtyrpics

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I was interested in this topic as a guard myself so I’m going to answer it from the prospective of railway staff.

Some crew are notoriously strict on tickets, which is how they feel the job should be done. Should crew are much more lenient. That’s the same in every industry. For those who want 100% concsitentcy, does that mean full application of conditions of carriage in every case? It’s impossible to do as a guard you just don’t have time.

Let’s consider an out of date railcard. Passengers boards at a local station going to the other side of the country. There railcard expired two days ago. You point this out, as they are going long distance you have to do something otherwise your setting up colleagues and the passenger for conflict or the good old the other man said routine. Perhaps in this case you could offer the passenger a new ticket or explain that they can purchase a new railcard at the intermediate station or online. Problem solved fairly and logically?

Later on that day you come across someone with a railcard that is six months out of date. Is the same discretion as above appropriate. It’s hard to justify certainly as I’d be a lot more sceptical of how genuine the mistake was. So most likely a new ticket would be sold.

Most guards and RPI can spot a chancer and a dodger at ten paces. And will deal them accordingly.

In the same way, you will usually know if the person in front of you has a genuine problem. It maybe you need to take money off them, or maybe you don’t. But staying calm respectful and explaining exactly what you need to do and why, will in the vast majority of situations ensure the passenger is happy and you’ve resolved the situation for them.

It’s been mentioned about staff not using discretion, if you get on a train at Point A going to Point B and you see the staff come down harshly but correctly on someone, that doesn’t offset all the good work they do too. That same person has probably used appropriate discretion somewhere down the line that day too.

Most companies now are pushing for customer service before revenue. Hence it’s hard to keep justifying complaints about having done tickets by the book. When the company are wanting customer service to be the priority.

It can be very easy to misread a ticket or go into autopilot when giving a passenger advise. It shouldn’t happen but does. There are plenty of ways to check and if I come across a ticket or indeed any other situation I’m not sure about I tend to walk away, do some research and then deal with it. If I have an unusual restriction code on a ticket I’ll check on the machine and if that’s inconclusive I’ll ask the relevant people internally. On our route there are three different Off Peak restrictions aswell as several anomalies too.

On a personal level, I like to be as fair and consistent as possible to everyone. That doesn’t mean I’ll allow any invalid ticket and certainly won’t kick up a fuss over a minor technicality either. But there is also a job to do properly too.

I know there are several bodies looking at simplifying ticket restrictions and overhauling the fares and routing rules. So maybe I’m coming years we will see a modern system designed for the 21st century world not a system so old it remembers The Dinosaurs.
 
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Gareth Marston

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How do you know that the reports you read prove that they do not use discretion (in favour of customers) at other, unreported, times? Quite simply, you don't - which makes your claim nonsense.

How many people contact the media to say that the "man on the train" let me travel with the ticket i bought? The media are generally only interest in "outraged commuters"
 

pompeyfan

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Talking about Advance singles, having never bought one but handled them differently depending on time/place/attitude etc, how obvious do online retailers make it? I would hope they all come up with bells and whistles to notify the passenger of the very clear rules regarding AP tickets, but the lack of passenger knowledge regarding this makes me think otherwise. The same goes for passengers attempting to travel on reference numbers instead of printing the ticket. The excuse of ‘i Was late to the station’ is starting to wear thin.
 

Gareth Marston

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Talking about Advance singles, having never bought one but handled them differently depending on time/place/attitude etc, how obvious do online retailers make it? I would hope they all come up with bells and whistles to notify the passenger of the very clear rules regarding AP tickets, but the lack of passenger knowledge regarding this makes me think otherwise. The same goes for passengers attempting to travel on reference numbers instead of printing the ticket. The excuse of ‘i Was late to the station’ is starting to wear thin.

People don't read or just go for the cheapest option on screen and then its not the product they actually need. Online AP customers can be a walking excess fare retail opportunity - at least the ones that come in to the Booking Office and ask though i suspect many just board the train to chance their luck.
 

pompeyfan

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People don't read or just go for the cheapest option on screen and then its not the product they actually need. Online AP customers can be a walking excess fare retail opportunity - at least the ones that come in to the Booking Office and ask though i suspect many just board the train to chance their luck.

What I’m asking though, is how well are the rules advertised. ‘You must travel on the service specified, click okay to continue’ - ‘warning, you must travel on the service you have selected, if you do not, you will be subject to (condition 2)...’
 

Gareth Marston

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upload_2018-5-14_13-51-23.png

That's Trainline for you. The initial advertising is "cheapest standard single" its only when you look at the right hand side which then describes it as "Advance Single" that the restriction is flagged.
 

pompeyfan

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So the train line could argue they are advertising it, but in my opinion they could and should do a lot more to notify passengers of the restrictions.
 
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