Hypothetical: What if Wimbledon to Croydon had become part of London Overground instead of Tramlink?

[NSE]

Hi all,

A thread totally based on speculation, but the question struck me and I don’t know the answer. So, traveling from Wimbledon to Croydon on the tram today I saw a 378 sitting in the turnback at West Croydon. And then I wondered, had LO been around at the time, do you think they would have made the West Croydon-Wimbledon route into a success? By success I mean turned it round so it stayed as a well used heavy rail line.

Now I don’t know much about the line during its period of operation, as I only went on it as a very small child, but from reading into it’s history and stories from someone I know who commuted daily for a period of time, it was a forgotten about line that had rundown stations etc and it reminded me of the descriptions I read about lines before they went over to LO.

So, of course, purely hypothetical, but do you think the line would have worked with LO? I could see it sorting out rundown stations, but would platforms have needed extending? Could it support a higher frequency? Both in terms of infrastructure or pax? Would 378’s work?

Of course it’s purely speculation. And I like using the tram. But as a rail enthusiast I always like heavy rail and just wondered what people with more knowledge than I do also thought?

 

[jimbo99]

I think it would have been a success, but not as successful as it is with trams. The nature of the route has changed considerably with the growth of the retail superstores, new residential accommodation etc., at least on the Croydon end of the route. Alot of the traffic is "local". Ie people from Addiscombe, Addington travelling to Ikea etc. The tram offers a through service. Being able to hop on a tram at one of its many stops is more convenient than going to West Croydon and changing to a train. People don't really associate trains (even the LO) with going to the shops in the same way as they do with trams/buses.

 

[NSE]

I’d say that’s probably the answer I came up with. I liked the idea of LO services carrying up the ELL. So through services from Wimbledon to Norwood etc, I think, yeah, it would work.

However the tram nature means you have about three stations close together serving Valley Park, which is far more attractive to commuters and the ability to have close together stations behind the Phipps Bridge estate etc.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I don’t think the Overground would have managed the frequency of the trams or indeed the extra stops. Both of these are major contributors to the success of the trams.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Didn't the heavy rail line between Croydon and Wimbledon use to cross Mitcham Junction on the flat? If it wasn't possible to engineer a viaduct capable of taking heavy rail then you would have a headache trying to fit in any Overground style frequency what with having 6 trains per hour plus freight and empties each way on the Sutton-Balham stretch.

 

[etr221]

Didn't the heavy rail line between Croydon and Wimbledon use to cross Mitcham Junction on the flat? If it wasn't possible to engineer a viaduct capable of taking heavy rail then you would have a headache trying to fit in any Overground style frequency what with having 6 trains per hour plus freight and empties each way on the Sutton-Balham stretch.

To be perhaps more precise, the Streatham (etc)-Sutton stretch, ran over the Wimbledon-Croydon line through Mitcham Junction, with junctions at each end of the station. Difficult, but not I think impossible, for an LO 4 or 6 tph to fit through - I would think the amount of doubling required of the largely single WIM-WCR line a bigger problem.

But overall, the Wimbledon-Croydon part of Tramlink (which was far more successful than anybody expected, based on the previous traffic levels), got it success from (a) a much higher profile as a direct link, (b) high frequency all day service, (c) many more stops, and (d) penetration from West Croydon through Central and East Croydon to points East - and a LO service couldn't have managed anything like the same features, and hence success

 

[RichJF]

Possibly a less significant reliance on Thameslink to provide the heavy rail opportunities. With the spread out nature of the Overground, I think Wimbledon might have been a bit too far out (via West Croydon) for regular commuter traffic other than local stops.

The Wimbledon-Croydon line used to use Class 456 in 2 car config, so if you were to run 5 car services it would probably have needed platform extensions & alterations for DOO.
A portion of the line was also single track & would likely have needed double-tracking to make it anywhere near capable enough for Overground frequencies.
I recall a couple of island platforms (in the middle) that might have fallen foul of modern disability, access and safety requirements.

Tramlink works in that it takes people from three main London heavy rail lines (London-Hayes, London-Brighton, London-SW) and disperses them into the suburbs around Croydon/Wimbldeon on a very local level. The area around Purley Way is constantly changing and the tram offers the best short-mid term solution. It's a good east-west feeder to the generally north-south heavy rail lines.

 

[30740]

Not answering the question, but you've triggered a bit of nostalgia. My first ever railway photo that i took was a 0-6-0 saddle tank in steam at Croydon B power station in about 1975. I had a summer job on the Purley Way in 1977 and I remember that there was a siding down the back of the factories on the West side of the road, though I never saw any trains on it. I think that apart from the power station all the freight had gone by then. In the 1980s there was a junction put in on the line between Croydon and Mitcham for a proposed new cement factory, but nothing ever happened.

At that time, the Purley Way was wall-to-wall factories. Now I'm not sure that there is even a single factory there. How society has changed!

Waddon Marsh was a fun station, you bought your tickets from the signalman.

One day I was waiting for a train at West Croydon, and the signalman in the "A" box (under the footbridge) recognised me and called me over to come and have a look at the box!

Fun times....

 

[GodAtum]

I thought that section was very overcrowded with commuters?

 

[Ianno87]

An interesting premise for a thread...

My thoughts:
-The area around West Croydon station has regenerated remarkably over the last few years. Would tram/Overground have had a different outcome?
-Overground would've probably had to solve the issue of the interlaced section at Mitcham (a retaining wall requiring extra prop-up, so presumably lots of ££££ to enable double track)
-Retaining a level crossing at Merton park would be intetesting down-time wise...
-As said upthread - Tramlink offers a frequency of stops heavy rail could not - look even at the usage of the likes of Dundonald Rd and Wandle Park

 

[Cricketer8for9]

The reminiscing about the Purley Way factories actually shows how badly the 1930s railways dealt with the new industrial areas of the London area. Some traffic to the power station, but the general merchandise went onto the roads even then.

 

[Lucan]

A portion of the line was also single track .... I recall a couple of island platforms (in the middle)

It was single track except from Wimbledon to just west of Merton Park (where the closed line to Merton Abbey and Tooting had branched off) and from Mitcham goods yard (while it was there), through Mitcham Station to Mitcham Junction inclusive. The latter double section was shortened to east of Mitcham after the wall subsidence a few yards to the west of Mitcham Station. So the only intermediate stations on double track were Mitcham and Mitcham Junction, and they did not have island platforms.

As I remember it, at Merton Park the station entrance and offices were on the curved platform for the disused Merton Abbey branch. To reach the trains, passengers walked along that old platform, down its end ramp, crossed the disused line by the barrow crossing, and then up the end ramp onto the operating straight platform. Both platforms were single track AFAIR, but I suppose you could have called the used platform a kind of island reached by that barrow crossing. Is that what you have in mind?

The line was operated by two 2-car EPB units for many years, crossing between Mitcham and Mitcham Junction. Manual tokens were used for the two single sections. Interestingly the line once had LBSC OHL electrification, so it has come full-circle in this respect.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Are you sure it was an LBSCR overhead electrification?

 

[Cricketer8for9]

On reflection I think the two coach trains used had been converted from overhead stock bu the line itself, save perhaps for the West Croydon bay platform was never electrified on the overhead system.

 

[Busaholic]

The West Croydon branch of the ELL runs at a 4tph headway, which I think is about the maximum possible to allow all branches to feed in at Surrey Quays, so that would be the frequency of an Overground service to Wimbledon, apart from all the other considerations/constraints mentioned. The only 'plus' feature I can see for it happening might be that all the nonsense of the extra Oyster validator at Wimbledon could be avoided, but that would remove a cashcow for TfL finances.

 

[Lucan]

I think you are right that the line never had OHL prior to Tramlink, and I had misunderstood because of the fact that when first electrified (as 3rd rail) it used converted OHL stock as you say. I was getting info from here : http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/m/mitcham/index.shtml, although I would not describe Mitcham as now "disused". With a bit more research I also now understand that the old Merton Park station had double track with side platforms on the Merton Abbey branch, but single track and platform for the "main" Mitcham direction.

 

[Antman]

An interesting premise for a thread...

My thoughts:
-The area around West Croydon station has regenerated remarkably over the last few years. Would tram/Overground have had a different outcome?
-Overground would've probably had to solve the issue of the interlaced section at Mitcham (a retaining wall requiring extra prop-up, so presumably lots of ££££ to enable double track)
-Retaining a level crossing at Merton park would be intetesting down-time wise...
-As said upthread - Tramlink offers a frequency of stops heavy rail could not - look even at the usage of the likes of Dundonald Rd and Wandle Park

Redevelopment around West Croydon station? It's still very much the poor end of town.

The increased usage of the Wimbledon line is quite remarkable and is largely down to a frequent service that takes you right into the town centre at bus fare prices.