I chose not to board the train at the nearest door and it left without me

[43066]

Evening all,

I'd be interested in the collective view on whether I was shafted/treated less than ideally/got what I deserved.

Last night, I was waiting for the final train from Hither Green to Charing Cross - I think it was due about 23:38 but turned up a few minutes late. I was standing at the top/driver end of the platform and started walking down the platform to spot a carriage with a toilet as the train was passing, so it would seem pretty likely that the driver saw me. I was also the only passenger on the platform, or at least on the part of the platform adjacent to the front half of the train.

The doors unlocked as I was passing the rear set of doors of the second or third carriage and, by the time I reached the front set of doors of the next carriage (which had a toilet, huzzah), they had been locked again. It seemed like there was only a 5-10 second window to press the open button. A few passengers got off but none of the open doors were within sprinting distance. I waved towards the cab in case the driver could see me on the monitors; the train departed anyway and I was left at a deserted station.

Should drivers operating the last service of the evening be ruthless with passengers (either on board or waiting to board) who don't open the nearest door as soon as it unlocks? I don't think an extra ten seconds of waiting time shortly before midnight would have caused chaos on the rail network but I may be wrong. I was a bit careless as it was in fact possible for me to board but a person who had been seated or gathering their belongings when the train stopped or with mobility problems would have suffered the same agonising fate of having to make small talk with a very chatty Uber driver for 30 minutes.

I must say this strikes me as a somewhat bizarre question.

If you walk along a train but don’t board then the driver is certainly going to assume you aren’t intending to catch that train. The priority is keeping the service on time for those passengers who have boarded.

DOO drivers get a very good understanding of normal passenger behaviour and 99.9% of passengers who intend to travel will simply board immediately through the nearest set of doors.

 

[whoosh]

Pull into station running late,
Release doors,
Cross off station on diagram,
Check signal,
Look in mirror/monitors

Someone's walking alongside the train. They must've got off surely, as anyone wanting to board would've got on by now?

Close doors.

Person now decides they want to get on.

I thought we all just wanted to get home as quickly as possible at this time of night?


There's the possibility of 'passengers' messing around being the cause of the delay in the first place, of course, which could lead to a waning of patience.
I've lost count of the amount of people who've got off a train pressing door open buttons as they walk along the platform.

 

[Tube driver]

Why do people always justify their actions by mentioning disabled or mobility impared people.

If you walk past the first set of released doors don't be upset if the doors get closed and you are left behind which you fully deserve to be.

It is not not drivers job to wait for you to pick a specific set of doors to board.

Honestly some of the threads on here recently with rubbish like this

Yep, you walk past an open set of doors, I assume you don’t want to get on and I’m gone.

if we wait for every passenger to pick and choose what door/carriage they prefer at every single station then the train will inevitably be mega-late and then guess what? The same people will then complain about late trains.

Either get there early and stand in the right place for the toilet carriage or whatever or get on the first set of doors and walk through when you‘re on. No one to blame but yourself

 

[Mat17]

From a passenger perspective there's nothing more irritating, especially when a train is late, to see staff having to wait even longer because someone who wants the train walks the entire length of it, past open doors, to get on at the front. I see it all the time.

If I were a driver/guard, I'd shut the doors and go. If you want the train, (so long at the train isn't full and standing) get on at the first set of doors and relocate by walking through the carriages. It's not the days of compartment stock. I just don't get it.

I can't help but think these people are also the first ones to complain when the train is late (caused by their dithering in the first place half the time).

 

[Undiscovered]

From a guards point if view, I'd assume you didn't want to get on.

We're late, so I'd expect you to be ready to get on the train at the closest set of doors, possibly the next at a push if it's busy. If you're ambling around the platform, well away from the train, to me, you're looking for someone who has/has not alighted.
As long as it's safe for me to do so, I'm closing the doors. If the hustle alarm doesn't spur you on, you're spending the night at the station.

If you appear to me to be vulnerable ie extremes of age, or otherwise, I might shout 'All Aboard' before closing, but otherwise, no.

 

[Mintona]

The OP states that some passengers alighted at Hither Green. If I was the driver and saw somebody on the platform, walking alongside but not getting on the train towards other people I’d probably assume they were going to meet friends or family off the train and start the dispatch process.

However, if at departure time they were pressing the door open button and I knew I was the last train of the night, I’d probably re-release the doors and let them on. The extra 10 seconds isn’t going to make a huge difference late at night.

 

[Undiscovered]

I’d probably re-release the doors and let them on. The extra 10 seconds isn’t going to make a huge difference late at night.

Will do if you then have a safety incident ie PTI incident, non UDS/SDO.
What then if someone else runs up late? Do you wait for them? What if there's 10 of them and the fastest holds the doors?

Where do you stop? Point is, if it's safe to do so, close the doors. That's it.

 

[steve_wills]

Evening all,

I'd be interested in the collective view on whether I was shafted/treated less than ideally/got what I deserved.

Last night, I was waiting for the final train from Hither Green to Charing Cross - I think it was due about 23:38 but turned up a few minutes late. I was standing at the top/driver end of the platform and started walking down the platform to spot a carriage with a toilet as the train was passing, so it would seem pretty likely that the driver saw me. I was also the only passenger on the platform, or at least on the part of the platform adjacent to the front half of the train.

The doors unlocked as I was passing the rear set of doors of the second or third carriage and, by the time I reached the front set of doors of the next carriage (which had a toilet, huzzah), they had been locked again. It seemed like there was only a 5-10 second window to press the open button. A few passengers got off but none of the open doors were within sprinting distance. I waved towards the cab in case the driver could see me on the monitors; the train departed anyway and I was left at a deserted station.

Should drivers operating the last service of the evening be ruthless with passengers (either on board or waiting to board) who don't open the nearest door as soon as it unlocks? I don't think an extra ten seconds of waiting time shortly before midnight would have caused chaos on the rail network but I may be wrong. I was a bit careless as it was in fact possible for me to board but a person who had been seated or gathering their belongings when the train stopped or with mobility problems would have suffered the same agonising fate of having to make small talk with a very chatty Uber driver for 30 minutes.

unfortunately you failed to board the last service of the night.

There is nothing more to say really.

Driver didn't leave you on the platform sorry.

You failed to board.

 

[Mintona]

Will do if you then have a safety incident ie PTI incident, non UDS/SDO.
What then if someone else runs up late? Do you wait for them? What if there's 10 of them and the fastest holds the doors?

Where do you stop? Point is, if it's safe to do so, close the doors. That's it.

You’re more likely to have an incident by the person in contact with the doors falling between train and platform in their panic to board. It’s safer to let them on.

 

[Undiscovered]

You’re more likely to have an incident by the person in contact with the doors falling between train and platform in their panic to board. It’s safer to let them on.

Then the train is clearly not safe to depart, so you don't.
but you're still not getting on the train.

 

[Flange Squeal]

I don't think an extra ten seconds of waiting time shortly before midnight would have caused chaos on the rail network but I may be wrong.

It likely wouldn't cause "chaos" but an extra 10 seconds at every stop will be an extra minute of delay for every six stations, which on suburban routes in and around cities with stations close together will soon mount up by journey's end. Drivers (at least on DOO) are expected to submit reports explaining why they are late and the train operating company fined for each minute of delay that can be attributed to them, not just to that train but also any others delayed by it en route (such as waiting at junctions etc). You'd be surprised how the odd minute or two delay to one train can very quickly snowball to affect other services, even at relatively quieter times. While passenger services will be much thinner by that hour, you'll still have plenty of empties floating around heading back to depots/stabling points, freight trains, on track machines heading to overnight engineering possessions, and the like.

 

[Mintona]

Then the train is clearly not safe to depart, so you don't.
but you're still not getting on the train.

If you have to wait 30 seconds for somebody to move away you may as well spend 10 seconds letting them on.

 

[Robertj21a]

The railway needs to have dependable services, not a race away from every station regardless of passengers!

 

[Undiscovered]

If you have to wait 30 seconds for somebody to move away you may as well spend 10 seconds letting them on.

Just goes down as passengers causing a delay.
Anyhows, I wouldn't worry. By your logic, you'd never leave a busy city station...

 

[ComUtoR]

The railway needs to have dependable services, not a race away from every station regardless of passengers!

This is, in part, driven by the very same people that use the trains. If you want trains to be on time then you need to accept that any delay isn't acceptable. This catch 22 has been discussed many times. Another reason for such a hard line approach is because the TOC is forced to push every second to keep the trains on time because of the fines and penalties involved. PPM accepted that there is going to be some delay but it wasn't accepted by the passenger so its all 'right time' and every single second counts.

There is of course an alternative.. You could timetable a minute dwell at every single station stop. For Sevenoaks to Charing Cross you will need to add 11 minutes to the journey time and then untie the chaos that will be caused from the reduction of services, loss of pathway times, connections etc. I'm pretty sure this isn't what the passengers want. Also, padding...

Sadly, you also have to consider DOO. The Driver doesn't step out onto the platform and relies on the monitors to view the train. The view is very limited and if you aren't visible because you are slightly back or behaving like you aren't boarding then the decision is made to close 'em up and go. We also don't look back either so if you start touching the train as the train pulls out then you won't get seen.

If you have a solution then I'm sure we are all open to hear it. If your personal solution is to use the car then you have the choice to do so.

 

[JammyJames08]

Evening all,

I'd be interested in the collective view on whether I was shafted/treated less than ideally/got what I deserved.

Last night, I was waiting for the final train from Hither Green to Charing Cross - I think it was due about 23:38 but turned up a few minutes late. I was standing at the top/driver end of the platform and started walking down the platform to spot a carriage with a toilet as the train was passing, so it would seem pretty likely that the driver saw me. I was also the only passenger on the platform, or at least on the part of the platform adjacent to the front half of the train.

The doors unlocked as I was passing the rear set of doors of the second or third carriage and, by the time I reached the front set of doors of the next carriage (which had a toilet, huzzah), they had been locked again. It seemed like there was only a 5-10 second window to press the open button. A few passengers got off but none of the open doors were within sprinting distance. I waved towards the cab in case the driver could see me on the monitors; the train departed anyway and I was left at a deserted station.

Should drivers operating the last service of the evening be ruthless with passengers (either on board or waiting to board) who don't open the nearest door as soon as it unlocks? I don't think an extra ten seconds of waiting time shortly before midnight would have caused chaos on the rail network but I may be wrong. I was a bit careless as it was in fact possible for me to board but a person who had been seated or gathering their belongings when the train stopped or with mobility problems would have suffered the same agonising fate of having to make small talk with a very chatty Uber driver for 30 minutes.

I think Hither green is staffed 24/7 there’s an office over on platform 5, if you needed the loo you could have just knocked at the office and asked them nicely if you could have used the facilities.

that “extra 10 seconds” can mean the difference when signallers make decisions as to what train gets priority (ie up at next junction) it’s that tight now a days. A train can be late then get even more late, why make two trains late?

the train was already late, the driver isn’t going to wait for people messing about (especially that late at night) because they can’t decide what door they want.

 

[bahnause]

Again out of a drivers perspective: I can‘t read peoples minds. All I can do is interpret what I can observe. What I can observe is limited both in terms of time and place. I might get a snapshot of the situation, not the whole picture. I can’t always distiguish somone waiting for a friend arriving on the train from someone wanting to board. I my case the picture is even more limited then in this example, because our DOO operation doesn‘t require a look at the platform (and quite often I cannot oversee the whole train).

 

[Parham Wood]

I am sorry but it is only sensible to get on at the nearest door, particularly on suburban routes where dwell times are short and when it is the last train. Off topic but I remember dwell times of 10-12 secs at Richmond in the morning rush hour with slam doors and loads of commuters who all managed to get on.

 

[Mintona]

Just goes down as passengers causing a delay.
Anyhows, I wouldn't worry. By your logic, you'd never leave a busy city station...

Nobody is going to care about a ten second delay. The chances of the same thing happening at each stop on a metro service are vanishingly small, even more so on the last train of the day. It’s plenty easy to leave a busy station, because the chances are it is busy with commuters who know what they are doing and keep clear of the yellow line. Whereas one person on their own late at night, in contact with the train trying to open the doors could be drunk and could fall down the gap. And if they aren’t, that’s a bonus.

Better a Delay Attribution Form than an RAIB investigation.

 

[43066]

If you have to wait 30 seconds for somebody to move away you may as well spend 10 seconds letting them on.

I must admit in my experience driving DOO trains re releasing to let people back on was always a recipe for disaster…

Invariably they’d hold the doors open to wait for their mates who were still buying tickets, or simply not board the train. On one memorable occasion, they opened the door, chucked their chewing gum into the door-bin, and walked off!

Snap the doors shut and leave promptly was my motto! That’s the approach I appreciate as a passenger to this day.

 

[DennisM]

The railway needs to have dependable services, not a race away from every station regardless of passengers!

If the departure time has came and gone then you should assume the train will be pulling away imminently, and as it’s late you’ve already had extra time to consider your boarding position on the platform. Either that or you’ve turned up late yourself and are lucky to be making it onto the train at all.

 

[142blue]

There's a huge push for an on time railway right now. Ten seconds here and there soon add up so my trains go on time, every time

 

[Applepie356]

Just curious do drivers get disciplined for late running?

 

[Mintona]

Just curious do drivers get disciplined for late running?

No.

 

[Aictos]

Sorry, I don't agree with that 'Railway Speak' view. Plenty of women have to travel alone 24/7, that's how you have nurses and police readily available to tend to you, or cooks, cleaners, managers etc to look after the areas you visit.
I see no need to get on at the very first train door as long as it's obvious to all that you intend to catch that train. Clearly, I don't agree with anyone just sauntering along a 12 coach train but there needs to be a level of common sense used by train staff too. Most of the time it seems to work well.

I disagree, if you wanted to catch the train in question then you just get on by the nearest doors, you don't just walk by a few doors just to get on at a specific carriage when you can use common sense and just board at the nearest doors to you and walk though the train if you need the toilet.

Rather then rail staff having to use common sense, the emphasis should be on passengers too.

That said, the OP of this thread has nobody to blame but themselves for missing their train.

 

[RHolmes]

Just curious do drivers get disciplined for late running?

No the drivers don’t as safety is more important than time, but the train operators do get penalised and push for performance (where it’s possible, reasonable and safe).

At my TOC it’s no longer measured on PPM but now it’s T-3. The train must be no more than +3 minutes late at any part of the route or the company faces financial penalties for every single late departure rather than the end of the journey as previous

 

[AlterEgo]

Or you could do the sensible thing and board a train when the doors release.

And not walk down two or three carriages as per the OP. That’s quite a fair way to walk and I’d interpret someone doing that as not wanting the train.

 

[Mat17]

What I have never been able to fathom is if people want to be in a certain carriage (say at the front, or the back), why they don't position themselves in a place on the platform where that carriage is most likely to stop.

True trains aren't always marshalled the same way around or can be short formed etc. But get most of the way to the right location to start with.

(I admit people who don't use trains often or haven't travelled on the service beforehand may not know this.)

Then as the train pulls in, I pick my door of choice and walk along with it until it stops so that I'm in the right place when the doors release and can board as soon as those alighting have vacated the train.

What baffles me (and I see it often) are those that stand there on the platform, wait till it's stopped and then think, now where should I get on? Worse still those that look like they don't want the train. But then make a mad dash to the closing doors when they hear them beeping.

By the way, to refute an early comment about this being a staff only thread, it's not. I'm a passenger, and one who regularly has to change trains or swap from train to bus. So those seconds these ditherers waste really bug me because as stated by other posters, the delays mount up and the risk of me missing my connecting service increases with it.

 

[nlogax]

The only place I’d do something like this is at a terminus in order to get into the carriage that will prove most convenient at my destination when aiming for the exit. I give myself plenty of time to do before departure. If I were to leave it to the last second and the train were to leave without me then I’d chalk it up to that being my own damned stupid fault.

 

[scragend]

What I have never been able to fathom is if people want to be in a certain carriage (say at the front, or the back), why they don't position themselves in a place on the platform where that carriage is most likely to stop.

True trains aren't always marshalled the same way around or can be short formed etc. But get most of the way to the right location to start with.

This is kind of what I do when I take my bike on the train (not trying to poke another hornet's nest with that one!)

I don't know which end of the train the bike space will be at, so I stand with my bike at the arrival end of the platform so that the whole train will have to come past me as it arrives. If I see that the bike space is at the front as it passes me, I start moving along the platform so that by the time the train has come to a stop and the doors have been released, I'm more or less in the right place by the doors that I need. (The trains are never more than four carriages long in these parts so it's not too far!)