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I demand some (railway) advice!

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70014IronDuke

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From a recent post.

Travelling London to Manchester on Wednesday and would like to know permitted routes I can take on any permitted routes ticket.

Don't people say "please", these days?

Not meaning to pick on you, cambsy, but I have noticed a number of requests like this.

Quite a number in the "I've been caught by an RPI sans ticket" segment too,

Frankly, even if I knew the answers, I would be disinclined to bother responding to such presumptuous requests.

I admire najab, DaveNewcastle etc for their unstinting and generous efforts to help anyone out so caught, but some of these folk need to learn some manners - they might get more assistance that way.
 
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HLE

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And capitalising words in the middle of a sentence or statement for no apparent reason!
 

lightning76

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Commencing a tale of woe with the entirely superfluous word "So", as in "So, on 11 March I was caught without a ticket" should lead to an £80 penalty, in my opinion.
 
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bignosemac

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And using a French word when there's a perfectly good English one. "Sans" instead of "without". :roll:

Mentioned merely because its such a petty thing to bring up. Not unlike highlighting contributors supposed lack of manners.

Thank-you most sincerely for reading my post.
 

PHILIPE

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A couple of months ago there was a blunt request, no please or similar, on TOPS Request Thread for some info so I replied by saying that "please" would give the OP a better chance of receiving a reply to the question. The poster, whose identity I can't recall, duly apologised. If I could remember the identity, I wouldn't post it.
 

ComUtoR

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And using a French word when there's a perfectly good English one. "Sans" instead of "without". :roll:

Mentioned merely because its such a petty thing to bring up. Not unlike highlighting contributors supposed lack of manners.

Thank-you most sincerely for reading my post.

Please accept my humble criticism of your post. The word 'sans' has been in use in the English language since the early 1500's. If you are an avid reader of our beloved William Shakespeare you may well see the word being used.

I do however; see it as quite vulgar to bring up someone's lack of manners.

Danke schön.
 

Deepgreen

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And using a French word when there's a perfectly good English one. "Sans" instead of "without". :roll:

Mentioned merely because its such a petty thing to bring up. Not unlike highlighting contributors supposed lack of manners.

Thank-you most sincerely for reading my post.

It isn't petty - one of the major problems with on-line forums such as this is that some people seem not to appreciate that conversations should follow the same rules of politeness and courtesy as would be applied face-to-face. There are many posters here who, if they spoke to others in the aggressive, rude and obnoxious ways that they post here would probably soon be flat on their backs!
 

highdyke

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There are also plenty of people who are aggressive toward potential customers, enthusiasts and other people they work with and will not listen to any other argument, whatever the evidence, if self-interest is involved.

Indeed the opening poster started a thread with a one sided attack on railway management and graduates.
 
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CaptainHaddock

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Not to mention people who hijack a thread about somebody else's problem to vent their frustration about an experience of their own. I was recently on a 142 just outside Wakefield Kirkgate when suddenly, and without warning, the guard sneezed loudly over the intercom. No explanation, no apology or anything. Wouldn't have happened in BR days, I can tell you.....
 

al78

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It isn't petty - one of the major problems with on-line forums such as this is that some people seem not to appreciate that conversations should follow the same rules of politeness and courtesy as would be applied face-to-face. There are many posters here who, if they spoke to others in the aggressive, rude and obnoxious ways that they post here would probably soon be flat on their backs!

That is the result of the removal of identity that online forums provide. If an individual is anonymous then they cannot be held accountable for their actions, and so feel entitled to behave how they like, as though the general rules of social etiquette cease to exist (and possibly because they are morally dead). Maybe it is because they are arseholes by nature and are forced in everyday life to wear a gloss of civility, hence use the anonymity of the online forum to release and inflict their true (unpleasant) nature on others without fear of consequence.
 

Deepgreen

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That is the result of the removal of identity that online forums provide. If an individual is anonymous then they cannot be held accountable for their actions, and so feel entitled to behave how they like, as though the general rules of social etiquette cease to exist (and possibly because they are morally dead). Maybe it is because they are arseholes by nature and are forced in everyday life to wear a gloss of civility, hence use the anonymity of the online forum to release and inflict their true (unpleasant) nature on others without fear of consequence.

Yep. Road rage has similar roots - the vehicle is a barrier behind which to shelter.
 

kieron

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I brought a ticket !!!
Take care of that. You'll need it later when you get back to the cloakroom.
It isn't petty - one of the major problems with on-line forums such as this is that some people seem not to appreciate that conversations should follow the same rules of politeness and courtesy as would be applied face-to-face.
I suspect that's largely because conversations here are not like face-fo-face discussions. Unlike in a spoken conversion, person A can describe his opinion of something person B wrote at great length before person B has any opportunity to explain that that wasn't how he meant it.

If, to avoid this, person A had asked if person B had meant whatever it was like that, person B may not understand the distinction person A is making, and it could then take a few days before person A finds out roughly what person B actually intended. They could then find that most of the posts on the thread in the last couple of pages are discussing something completely different.
 

bignosemac

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Not to mention people who hijack a thread about somebody else's problem to vent their frustration about an experience of their own. I was recently on a 142 just outside Wakefield Kirkgate when suddenly, and without warning, the guard sneezed loudly over the intercom. No explanation, no apology or anything. Wouldn't have happened in BR days, I can tell you.....

*LIKE*

And as the supposed, if flawed, correlation between forums and face-to-face conversation has been made, I'll comment on CaptainHaddock's post as I would in conversation, with my wesscundry burr:

"Churz mate, that made I laff!"

Once again, my felicitous gratitude for reading this missive.
 

Deepgreen

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Take care of that. You'll need it later when you get back to the cloakroom.

I suspect that's largely because conversations here are not like face-fo-face discussions. Unlike in a spoken conversion, person A can describe his opinion of something person B wrote at great length before person B has any opportunity to explain that that wasn't how he meant it.

If, to avoid this, person A had asked if person B had meant whatever it was like that, person B may not understand the distinction person A is making, and it could then take a few days before person A finds out roughly what person B actually intended. They could then find that most of the posts on the thread in the last couple of pages are discussing something completely different.

Having hugely more time to make appropriate and considered responses means even less excuse for rudeness and aggressiveness than if in a 'real time' conversation.
 

Agent_c

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Really, a whole thread to winge about the absence of Please?

Slow railway news day?
 

Starmill

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Quite a number in the "I've been caught by an RPI sans ticket" segment too,

Frankly, even if I knew the answers, I would be disinclined to bother responding to such presumptuous requests.

It doesn't seem you have been paying much attention to the section, these are not the only threads in it and very far from the only type of dispute that is found there. Many of the disputes are begun wrongfully by train companies which they end up losing.

I admire najab, DaveNewcastle etc for their unstinting and generous efforts to help anyone out so caught, but some of these folk need to learn some manners - they might get more assistance that way.

While my assesment of that would be that rather than providing advice, there are a lot of posters (I do not single out anyone, just because you have) whose goal it seems to be more to laugh at the misfortune of others in that section. The purpose of the section is to provide advice - not to presume guilt and lecture someone about what they have done wrong.

This is one of the reasons I do not have much trust in this forum as an arena for productive discussion. While I count a significant number of members as valued friends and know them well, there is always someone looking to criticise you and happy to be as pedantic as necessary to facilitate that.
 

Robertj21a

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I do however; see it as quite vulgar to bring up someone's lack of manners.

Danke schön.

Why ? - if it irritates others why shouldn't that fact be highlighted. Isn't that much better than it being allowed to just fester ?
 

DarloRich

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It isn't petty - one of the major problems with on-line forums such as this is that some people seem not to appreciate that conversations should follow the same rules of politeness and courtesy as would be applied face-to-face. There are many posters here who, if they spoke to others in the aggressive, rude and obnoxious ways that they post here would probably soon be flat on their backs!

I am worse in real life as i cant swear here! No one has ever hit me................
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
While my assesment of that would be that rather than providing advice, there are a lot of posters (I do not single out anyone, just because you have) whose goal it seems to be more to laugh at the misfortune of others in that section. The purpose of the section is to provide advice - not to presume guilt and lecture someone about what they have done wrong.

Why am i agreeing with you so much today???? That is very well put and reflects my views

This is one of the reasons I do not have much trust in this forum as an arena for productive discussion. While I count a significant number of members as valued friends and know them well, there is always someone looking to criticise you and happy to be as pedantic as necessary to facilitate that.

I agree to a point but feel there are several posters who need to "man up" more often in the face of the nasty internet man.
 

Starmill

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I agree to a point but feel there are several posters who need to "man up" more often in the face of the nasty internet man.

Again you're likely to be quite right about that. In the real world, it's entirely typical and unavoidable that you will come across people who are deliberately not very nice for whatever reason. Knowing how to deal with that in the best way in a lot of different situations is a skill, not a switch, and you need to learn it over time.
 

Greenback

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A thick skin comes in handy in many situations in life, especially in the world of work, not just in an internet forum. People will disagree with your opinions and criticise what you say in all sorts of situations. I've even had 'robust discussions when playing cricket and darts, mostly with my own side!

At least on a forum you don't have face to face contact, which I confess can be a positive and a negative.
 

ComUtoR

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That should be a comma, not a semicolon. ;)

I was taught to use a semicolon after using however. I've been doing it for .....years ! Cheers for pointing it out. Now I need a time machine to travel back and terminate my English teacher.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Why ? - if it irritates others why shouldn't that fact be highlighted. Isn't that much better than it being allowed to just fester ?

Because pointing out someone's lack of manners is in itself poor manners. Naming and shaming is just as poor.

Forum and Internet culture seems is often hypocritical in its behaviour because it accepts poor manners in some respects but stil demands p's and q's.
 
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Clip

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It isn't petty - one of the major problems with on-line forums such as this is that some people seem not to appreciate that conversations should follow the same rules of politeness and courtesy as would be applied face-to-face. There are many posters here who, if they spoke to others in the aggressive, rude and obnoxious ways that they post here would probably soon be flat on their backs!

Wey - Hey we got a big man here lol.


People need to understand its just an internet forum and as long as its readable and you get what they are posting then that should suffice. But another thread descending into gramer and punctuation when we already have one is pretty good going folks!!
 

backontrack

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Here's a piece of advice: when making a query, as well as saying 'please', then you can say TIA. This stands for 'Thanks In Advance'.
 

70014IronDuke

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...

Indeed the opening poster started a thread with a one sided attack on railway management and graduates.

May I suggest you read the original post on that thread again. Nowhere once did I attack graduates. Yes, that is one direction that the thread went, but, honestly, I hadn't realised that was still a deep issue, just as it was 40 years ago when, guess, what, I was a graduate :)

I totally agree I was being provocative - that certainly was intentional, but what I wanted to provoke was discussion on the subject of management training, eg how effective is it? If, after all these years, the system is producing less than ideal managers (and it would seem, from the reactions on the thread, which I've just looked at- "far from ideal" would be a better description), then why so? What can be done about it?

Also, high up in my post, I wrote something about no manager can please everyone all the time. And I did note that floating the idea of poor management based on two examples could be an error.

If you count that as an attack as a one-sided attack on railway management, well, that's up to you, but I would disagree.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It doesn't seem you have been paying much attention to the section, these are not the only threads in it and very far from the only type of dispute that is found there.
I read a lot of those threads, partly because I an amazed at the variations in policies enacted by the same TOC. I find it frightening, actually. But whether I "pay much attention" according to your understanding of the phrase, I can't say.

Many of the disputes are begun wrongfully by train companies which they end up losing.
So it seems, and I'm genuinely pleased to hear the TOCs do end up losing, if proved to be in the wrong. (But I somehow think it's a horrid way to treat passengers, and must put a lot off.)

But what has that got to do with my original point? Does that mean someone so wronged can come on here demanding assistance as of a right?
Well, of course, they can, there is no restriction (within limits) on how they word their requests, but is that the best way for them to get the assistance they need?

While my assesment of that would be that rather than providing advice, there are a lot of posters (I do not single out anyone, just because you have) whose goal it seems to be more to laugh at the misfortune of others in that section. The purpose of the section is to provide advice - not to presume guilt and lecture someone about what they have done wrong.

Why on earth do you bring this up? Where have I suggested that people should be lectured if caught travelling without a ticket?

This is one of the reasons I do not have much trust in this forum as an arena for productive discussion. While I count a significant number of members as valued friends and know them well, there is always someone looking to criticise you and happy to be as pedantic as necessary to facilitate that.

Well, you have accused me of not paying attention to posts in the disputes section - which is a total irrelevance - and you have implied I advocate lecturing people in the same section - when I haven't.

And then you say you lack trust in the forum because "there is always someone looking to criticise you and happy to be as pedantic as necessary to facilitate that."

Hmmmm. Interesting.
 

bb21

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OK, folks. Gonna have to demand that we stick to the original topic please.

Sorry about the lack of manners, but this is looking like it will take a turn for the unsavoury. (Pun intended / unintended depending on your own perspective.)
 
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