I do have a railcard..but I forgot it. Refund?

[ainsworth74]

The argument that it might encourage fraudsters to 'try it on' doesn't hold water as you have to produce your railcard to purchase the ticket in the first place.

Not if you buy it online or at TVM.

 

[snail]

The situation the OP had in this thread is quite different. He had a legal ticket to travel on that train and he has purchased a railcard to entitle him to that ticket. He just doesn't have the railcard with him and therefore, rightly, the guard doesn't know if he really is legally entitled to travel on that ticket so charges the uplift to a non-railcard price.

But because the ticket is in fact valid and legal (the OP has a railcard), the OP should be able to later reclaim that uplift back on production of said railcard, perhaps with payment of a reasonable admin fee for the extra work the railway has to do to issue the extra ticket and process the refund.

So if the passenger turns up at the airport without their passport they should be allowed to travel on a later flight without penalty?

 

[Captain Chaos]

No, it's more basic than that. It's a question of what is reasonable and what is not. It is not reasonable to 'punish' a law-abiding but forgetful passenger as if they were trying to defraud the railway as a fare-dodger is. It IS reasonable to charge the forgetful customer the difference (to a non-railcard price plus admin of say a tenner), and refund it (less the tenner) when the passenger produces the card later.

The argument that it might encourage fraudsters to 'try it on' doesn't hold water as you have to produce your railcard to purchase the ticket in the first place.

Not at a TVM you don't nor do you have to show it online in order to purchase it. Therefore your argument that you have to show it before purchasing 'doesn't hold water'.

 

[jon0844]

I'm sorry but in this day and age, and sadly probably even more so in this country where everyone believes they have all the rights and none of the responsibilities, it's fair to assume that people ARE trying it on. And given it would be near impossible, as well as wasting loads of time, for a guard/TM/RPI to prove or disprove the story given by someone who insists they left their railcard in another pocket/wallet - it's easier to say 'This is the procedure. If you're telling the truth, you're fine. If not, tough luck'. I'm pretty sure that if you didn't have the money to pay for the extra ticket(s) there and then, you could be given the paperwork to pay later and potentially get it cancelled before you actually paid anything/much at all.

That in itself should stop people trying it on, which helps the railway avoid having to deal with this problem all the time (at Hatfield, full of students, it's a regular issue as I've seen myself many times). If someone thinks 'well I can do it once or maybe twice' by getting a mate with a railcard then, yes, the railway loses out - but I could do the same with my season ticket and buy a new ticket, let my wife use it for the day, then go back and get the refund saying I left my season at home. Twice a year I could probably do that - but how many people would bother to do that?

Don't take offence that someone who can't see your ticket might be thinking you're trying it on. The advantage of having my idea in place is that they don't need to care or make any judgement - just treat everyone as equal and give you the benefit of the doubt. You don't even get embarrassed in front of other passengers, as you can quite happily keep to your story that you left the railcard somewhere else and nobody is going to be saying 'oooh, I bet s/he hasn't and was making it up'.

 

[CosherB]

So if the passenger turns up at the airport without their passport they should be allowed to travel on a later flight without penalty?

What the 'eck have passports got to do with ticketing? UK Borders demands 'proof of identity' for some flights, and a passport for others. I'm not aware that UK Borders issues tickets.

Crikey, this is like kindergarten!
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Not at a TVM you don't nor do you have to show it online in order to purchase it. Therefore your argument that you have to show it before purchasing 'doesn't hold water'.

Fair comment. But it doesn't change the argument. Someone deliberately travelling with intention to defraud is NOT the same thing as someone who has simply forgotten their railcard. Any reasonable system should recognise that and NOT treat the forgetful but legal passenger as if they were a fare avoider.

I'm amazed I even have to point that out. The fact that I do speaks volumes for some attitudes on here.

 

[yorkie]

No, it's more basic than that. It's a question of what is reasonable and what is not.

This debate was surely over days ago! The OP was dealt with in a reasonable manner.

It is not reasonable to 'punish' a law-abiding but forgetful passenger as if they were trying to defraud the railway as a fare-dodger is.

They were not punished, and not treated as a fare dodger. If the were, an MG11 would have been issued and the matter referred for prosecution.

It IS reasonable to charge the forgetful customer the difference (to a non-railcard price plus admin of say a tenner),

Yes.

and refund it (less the tenner) when the passenger produces the card later.

Not really, no. What's to stop any Railcard holder claiming that they used such a ticket, when in reality their mate did?

The argument that it might encourage fraudsters to 'try it on' doesn't hold water as you have to produce your railcard to purchase the ticket in the first place.

No you don't.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Crikey, this is like kindergarten!

On the contrary. However there are other forums around if you don't like it here. Take your pick.

Fair comment. But it doesn't change the argument. Someone deliberately travelling with intention to defraud is NOT the same thing as someone who has simply forgotten their railcard.

I agree, in fact as far as I can tell everyone on this topic agrees. There has never been any suggestion to the contrary.

Any reasonable system should recognise that and NOT treat the forgetful but legal passenger as if they were a fare avoider.

The OP was not in any way treated as a fare avoider. What relevance do your comments have? What value do they add? This is getting tiresome.

I'm amazed I even have to point that out. The fact that I do speaks volumes for some attitudes on here.

There is no need to 'point that out' as the OP was not treated as if they were a fare avoider, and if anyone suggests they were, then quite frankly they're wrong.

There are several pro-customer fares experts here who believe the OP was treated fairly. We're not in any way anti-customer. But we are reasonable.

 

[snail]

What the 'eck have passports got to do with ticketing? UK Borders demands 'proof of identity' for some flights, and a passport for others. I'm not aware that UK Borders issues tickets.

No passport, no boarding card. You miss your flight. Will the airline give you a refund on your ticket or let you on a later flight for free? Unlikely, especially if it's Ryanair. What's a Railcard if it's not 'proof of identity'?

Crikey, this is like kindergarten!

You better stop throwing the toys around then.

 

[yorkie]

I am locking the thread now.

The OP's question has been comprehensively answered, the rules are clear and the OP was treated as leniently as possible and is not entitled to any sort of refund, having paid less than the rules allow for.

The thread is going round in circles, but Captain Speaking is not currently able to answer the questions asked by snail and myself, due to events in another topic, completely unrelated to this one.

I hope people understand, therefore, there seems no benefit to debating this issue further. If anyone wants further reading on this subject, there are numerous topics that can be found through the search feature, including this one.