I still think it’s outrageous that NON-Safeguard Employees on the railway are NOT entitled to a PTAC

[JerryNoah]

Hello all,

I am struggling to accept the fact that, and this is not a rant towards tube staff but not having a PTAC and working on the railway is in fact a terrible policy.
Regardless of companies with reciprocal travel, most companies do not get PTAC. Tube staff are enrolled on the PRIV scheme and I see many travel for free on suburban services without paying, most conductors allow it, wouldn’t it be nice to do the same on the tube, problem is thats fraud, but many tube staff seem to not bother to purchase seasons.

Anyway, non safeguarded staff such as myself, it costs over £1000 a year when PTAC is a quarter of that, is this going to change anytime soon, as tube staff can claim 75% on all services including a free tap out on an ITSO gate not managed by TfL, such as TL, Gatwick, GN, I just find it a little unfair I’m afraid, I understand no such policy has been in place for two decades but I am struggling to come to terms with this. Perhaps if tube staff were to lose their PRIV, it would indeed even it up, they are not a TOC, sorry to say it, they should be classed as a metro.

Poor Metrolink, Midland Metro, Tram companies in the north, wouldn’t it be nice for them as well to access Priv.

Who can I express my demonstrations to.

Thank you.

 

[Halfway Boy]

Quite the rant there.

I think you’ll find most LU staff are either safeguarded or non-safeguarded and take advantage of the 75% that TfL refund them on national rail.

Some non-safeguarded will be stupid enough to try and blag their way on their staff pass, just as some coppers do that aren’t entitled to ATOC cards, but most aren’t stupid enough to risk it.

TfL have reciprocal arrangements with a handful of TOC’s such as Eurostar which benefit both parties, and given the fact that TfL have to refund the 75% cash price of staff season tickets for non-safeguarded I imagine it’s more the national rail TOC’s that are resistant to reciprocal arrangements as it would save TfL money whilst costing the TOC’s money (they don’t pay for staff to have reduced or free tube travel so no saving there, and would lose the fares from TfL staff so overall it would be a net loss to them).

As for TfL staff losing their priv, that’s all well and good but then TfL will just withdraw the reciprocal arrangement for BR safeguarded staff so all it will do is hurt former BR staff as TfL will most likely have to offer the 75% refund to their staff affected like they do to non-safeguarded, whilst I imagine most TOC’s would just say it’s tough like they do to non safe-guarded.

I would suggest taking it up with your TOC or union if you’re really that bothered, otherwise accept what everyone else has for the last 20 years.

 

[EM2]

PTAC?

 

[Darandio]

Privelege Ticket Authority Card. Although i'd agree it would be nice if such acronyms were stated.

 

[LETHLFH]

Just because they have more access to free/cheaper travel than yourself you would like to see them lose it just to even it up? Race to the bottom springs to mind.

 

[RJ]

Hello all,

I am struggling to accept the fact that, and this is not a rant towards tube staff but not having a PTAC and working on the railway is in fact a terrible policy.
Regardless of companies with reciprocal travel, most companies do not get PTAC. Tube staff are enrolled on the PRIV scheme and I see many travel for free on suburban services without paying, most conductors allow it, wouldn’t it be nice to do the same on the tube, problem is thats fraud, but many tube staff seem to not bother to purchase seasons.

Safeguarded BR TOC staff get Priv rate on the Underground. Safeguarded LT staff get a Priv.

There are no blanket reciprocal arrangements for non-safeguarded TOC and TfL staff. They are separate administrations/systems and that's just the way it is. I fall under this category and graciously accept the situation. Not to forget that TOC staff can still use LU services with a Priv ticket that includes a cross-London transfer.

Some TOCs have struck a reciprocal deal with TfL. For example, GTR and some VTEC staff do get a TfL PTAC. In return, TfL staff get Priv rate seasons on their services, plus TfL staff can use GTR services in the Central area. Eurostar staff get a PTAC in exchange for a generous fare deal that beats FIP prices.

Your beef is probably with your employers - perhaps talk to them about coming to an arrangement with TfL.

As for staff abusing their passes, that's at their own risk. I wouldn't use that to try and inform policy.

 

[theironroad]

Let's not forget that non safeguarded staff on the big railway such as freight drivers working for the big freight firms and signallers , pway and other NR staff don't get priv rate travel.

Having the option to move from pass to freight would be nice but the lack of priv travel is a very big drawback.

 

[ComUtoR]

Whats the difference between PTAC and PRIV ?

 

[pdeaves]

Whats the difference between PTAC and PRIV ?

I think, by the nature of discussion, that priv gives privilege rate on the big railway and PTAC gives privileges on the Underground.

 

[ComUtoR]

Cheers, that would make sense.

 

[Mag_seven]

I think, by the nature of discussion, that priv gives privilege rate on the big railway and PTAC gives privileges on the Underground.

See this thread from a couple of years back, in particular post #5

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/privilege-travel-authority-card-ptac-discounts.113421/

 

[RJ]

A PTAC is just another type of Priv. Several variants exist which allow privilege rate travel on TfL and/or NR services.

 

[Foxcote]

I must agree with JerryNoah, the changes to staff travel conditions from 1.4.96. were a big blow to many (such as Railtrack staff) who joined after that date. However, this is nothing new and sadly the chances of obtaining a change at this late stage seem very slim to me. Union representations on staff conditions of travel after the change were not taken up by the new TOC’s.

Those joining the new BR, 1.1.48. found that their Priv seasons (outside London) allowed eight free miles, while those who were employed before that date were allowed 12 free miles. Concessions changed when parts of BR were disposed or sold off. Examples are; Caledonian McBrayne 1.1.71. Tyne & Wear Metro 11.4.80. and Wightlink 1.4.85.

 

[6Gman]

I must agree with JerryNoah, the changes to staff travel conditions from 1.4.96. were a big blow to many (such as Railtrack staff) who joined after that date. However, this is nothing new and sadly the chances of obtaining a change at this late stage seem very slim to me. Union representations on staff conditions of travel after the change were not taken up by the new TOC’s.

Those joining the new BR, 1.1.48. found that their Priv seasons (outside London) allowed eight free miles, while those who were employed before that date were allowed 12 free miles. Concessions changed when parts of BR were disposed or sold off. Examples are; Caledonian McBrayne 1.1.71. Tyne & Wear Metro 11.4.80. and Wightlink 1.4.85.

My late mother, who had priv travel from birth in 1926 to death in 2015, was always amused that she enjoyed privileges that I didn't enjoy (such as CalMac Ferries). I was equally amused that I (1957 to date) had more "boxes" than she had. There have always been anomalies.

Re the Freight Operators - surely the problem is that they've nothing to offer as reciprocal arrangements? (Unless you fancy travelling from Harwich to Trafford Park in a box ...)

 

[tiptoptaff]

Re the Freight Operators - surely the problem is that they've nothing to offer as reciprocal arrangements? (Unless you fancy travelling from Harwich to Trafford Park in a box ...)

This is the key. The non-safeguarded travel PRIV is a reciprocal arrangement between TOCs. Hence Freight and NR get nothing as they have nothing to reciprocate, unless they're contractually entitled (ie, Safeguarded)

Is it right? No.

 

[6Gman]

This is the key. The non-safeguarded travel PRIV is a reciprocal arrangement between TOCs. Hence Freight and NR get nothing as they have nothing to reciprocate, unless they're contractually entitled (ie, Safeguarded)

Is it right? No.

But if I go to work for (say) Arriva next week I believe that I get free travel on Arriva's various rail operations (and its buses?) but do I get any other concessions? Do the TOCs have reciprocal arrangements e.g. Arriva - Stagecoach, or Virgin - GoAhead?

If not, then Arriva simply offers these facilities on its own services to its own employees. And the freight companies and NR simply have no services to offer either to their own employees or reciprocally.

 

[tiptoptaff]

This is why Staff Travel varies greatly between TOC as each company offers it's own take on free company travel. PRIV is the same whatever TOC you work for. I fully believe that NR staff and Freight staff should get PRIV rate travel.

 

[6Gman]

This is why Staff Travel varies greatly between TOC as each company offers it's own take on free company travel.

PRIV is the same whatever TOC you work for.

I fully believe that NR staff and Freight staff should get PRIV rate travel.

I'm confused (have never needed to worry about it as I'm Safeguarded) but you say that Staff Travel varies, but Priv is the same at all TOCs. What do you mean? That the services it covers varies, but the discount is the same or what?

Genuine question.

 

[tiptoptaff]

PRIV is the same as in that whatever TOC you work for, you get the 75% on all services. Free staff travel varies TOC to TOC depending on the franchises they hold and what they offer.

AS an example, Arriva you can have free unlimited travel on all their franchises: ATW, Northern, Tyne Metro, XC and London Overground, plus their buses outside of London. Same for partner and dependants. Nothing for family and friends.

GWR I can have free unlimited on GWR, but get "boxes" to use on the other First Group TOCs (SWR, TPE, Hull Trains) and I can buy at a discount a number of weekly bus tickets per year. Same for partner and dependants, but I can also buy a number of Family and Friends day rover tickets for up to 4 people to travel with me on the First network who wouldn't normally get anything.

Some TOCs have residential agreements. Some have agreements with LU/TFL

So every TOC is different in terms of what you get, but PRIV is the same across the board. Hope that makes sense?

 

[nom de guerre]

This is the key. The non-safeguarded travel PRIV is a reciprocal arrangement between TOCs. Hence Freight and NR get nothing as they have nothing to reciprocate, unless they're contractually entitled (ie, Safeguarded)

NR staff on Wessex route gained similar/identical travel privileges to SWT staff in 2011 after the two companies entered into an alliance. I believe the arrangement still stands - clarification welcome.

It would also be interesting to hear whether NR Scotland staff were similarly rewarded after the formation of the ScotRail Alliance.

 

[whhistle]

Privelege Ticket Authority Card. Although i'd agree it would be nice if such acronyms were stated.

It's actually a forum rule.
Only gets enforced when an Admin breathes on you. For some it's okay, others not so much.

Anyway...

I for one am thankful that many conductor/guards allow free travel, even if you're not entitled to it.
If I was running a TOC, I'd be calling up all the others suggesting free travel for all employees. The amount that would take it up is very low, the cost is tiny, but the percieved benefit to employees is huge.

 

[Carlisle]

I would suggest taking it up with your TOC or union if you’re really that bothered, .

Are you serious? The unions have done almost nothing in this area since privatisation, If a small percentage of the effort Mr Whealen & Mr Cash have invested in fighting DOO/pensions etc had gone into this area, in my opinion a lot more staff would have ultimately benefited, but of course today’s railway is primarily about those with the most immediate bargaining power more than anything else which I guess is as much a fault of the structure we have as much as it is with any of the union officials or individual TOC management ,as the TOCs are mostly only concerned with their own patch.

 

[ComUtoR]

Are you serious? The unions have done almost nothing in this area since privatisation,

What do you mean by 'almost nothing' ? Are you aware of their recent attempt ?

 

[Carlisle]

What do you mean by 'almost nothing' ? Are you aware of their recent attempt ?

I wasn’t, so I’ll look into it cheers .

 

[Highlandspring]

NR staff on Wessex route gained similar/identical travel privileges to SWT staff in 2011 after the two companies entered into an alliance. I believe the arrangement still stands - clarification welcome.

My understanding is the SWT travel facilities for non safeduarded NR staff are still in place.

It would also be interesting to hear whether NR Scotland staff were similarly rewarded after the formation of the ScotRail Alliance.

They were not, and have been told by two Route Managing Directors in a row (Big Phil and Alex Hynes) that under no circumstances would any travel facilities for non safeguarded NR staff be forthcoming. There are a few ScotRail duty passes for work related travel floating about but they are very difficult to get hold of because there are so few. To really rub it in ScotRail branded name badges and lanyards have been issued to NR Scotland staff.

I was amazed to read a minute ago on another thread that BTP get priv/boxes...

 

[12guard4]

Poor Metrolink, Midland Metro, Tram companies in the north, wouldn’t it be nice for them as well to access Priv.



Thank you.

Sorry but Metros and Trams are nothing to do with the railway why should they get discounted rail travel?

 

[AlterEgo]

Who can I express my demonstrations to.

Thank you.

Your union rep.

 

[nom de guerre]

My understanding is the SWT travel facilities for non safeduarded NR staff are still in place.


They were not, and have been told by two Route Managing Directors in a row (Big Phil and Alex Hynes) that under no circumstances would any travel facilities for non safeguarded NR staff be forthcoming. There are a few ScotRail duty passes for work related travel floating about but they are very difficult to get hold of because there are so few. To really rub it in ScotRail branded name badges and lanyards have been issued to NR Scotland staff.

I was amazed to read a minute ago on another thread that BTP get priv/boxes...

Ta. I was fairly sure that NR Wessex staff were still receiving some form of free travel (although I'm not sure if this also includes other First TOCs and/or Priv).

Shame re the ScotRail Alliance, albeit unsurprising. Did the union show any interest?

 

[Tube driver]

I for one am thankful that many conductor/guards allow free travel, even if you're not entitled to it.
If I was running a TOC, I'd be calling up all the others suggesting free travel for all employees. The amount that would take it up is very low, the cost is tiny, but the percieved benefit to employees is huge.

Whilst many guards/conductors would turn a blind eye, some do not and its not worth the risk of getting penalty fared or worse and the potential impact on your job. LUL do not take it lightly and you will be having an awkward conversation should they find out.

I agree that the whole Ptac/priv needs overhauling. You work on the rails, you should get free travel or at the very least an equal discount no matter how long you've worked there. Because I'm post 96 employed I get 75% off my season ticket which is taxable when I pay my season loan every month. My colleague who lives literally down the road from me is employed pre 96 and gets the 75% off direct at the ticket office and subsequently saves over a hundred quid a month over what I pay.

Now, I'm not complaining as such. It is a valuable benefit and I appreciate it but what I'm complaining about is the inequality and disparity of it all. One job - one discount. A simple thing that would do wonders to improve (on a very low) morale.

 

[JerryNoah]

Whilst many guards/conductors would turn a blind eye, some do not and its not worth the risk of getting penalty fared or worse and the potential impact on your job. LUL do not take it lightly and you will be having an awkward conversation should they find out.

I agree that the whole Ptac/priv needs overhauling. You work on the rails, you should get free travel or at the very least an equal discount no matter how long you've worked there. Because I'm post 96 employed I get 75% off my season ticket which is taxable when I pay my season loan every month. My colleague who lives literally down the road from me is employed pre 96 and gets the 75% off direct at the ticket office and subsequently saves over a hundred quid a month over what I pay.

Now, I'm not complaining as such. It is a valuable benefit and I appreciate it but what I'm complaining about is the inequality and disparity of it all. One job - one discount. A simple thing that would do wonders to improve (on a very low) morale.

I agree completely, however I soon will need to stop buying PRIV monthly’s and turn to an annual season, and as you say I’m not sure I can get it direct at the ticket office therefore will have to fill out the form on RST, but I only step foot on a train if I have a ticket, otherwise I won’t even try my luck. I don’t know how the tax thing works, do you have to be safeguarded to get a tax free season at PRIV ?

Quite the rant there.

I think you’ll find most LU staff are either safeguarded or non-safeguarded and take advantage of the 75% that TfL refund them on national rail.

Some non-safeguarded will be stupid enough to try and blag their way on their staff pass, just as some coppers do that aren’t entitled to ATOC cards, but most aren’t stupid enough to risk it.

TfL have reciprocal arrangements with a handful of TOC’s such as Eurostar which benefit both parties, and given the fact that TfL have to refund the 75% cash price of staff season tickets for non-safeguarded I imagine it’s more the national rail TOC’s that are resistant to reciprocal arrangements as it would save TfL money whilst costing the TOC’s money (they don’t pay for staff to have reduced or free tube travel so no saving there, and would lose the fares from TfL staff so overall it would be a net loss to them).

As for TfL staff losing their priv, that’s all well and good but then TfL will just withdraw the reciprocal arrangement for BR safeguarded staff so all it will do is hurt former BR staff as TfL will most likely have to offer the 75% refund to their staff affected like they do to non-safeguarded, whilst I imagine most TOC’s would just say it’s tough like they do to non safe-guarded.

I would suggest taking it up with your TOC or union if you’re really that bothered, otherwise accept what everyone else has for the last 20 years.

This was interesting to Hear I believe only two companies that’s GN and VTEC get the discount also, but ill accept the fact I have to continue paying full rate.

Privelege Ticket Authority Card. Although i'd agree it would be nice if such acronyms were stated.

I couldn’t write the whole thing as I couldn’t fit it in title.

Safeguarded BR TOC staff get Priv rate on the Underground. Safeguarded LT staff get a Priv.

There are no blanket reciprocal arrangements for non-safeguarded TOC and TfL staff. They are separate administrations/systems and that's just the way it is. I fall under this category and graciously accept the situation. Not to forget that TOC staff can still use LU services with a Priv ticket that includes a cross-London transfer.

Some TOCs have struck a reciprocal deal with TfL. For example, GTR and some VTEC staff do get a TfL PTAC. In return, TfL staff get Priv rate seasons on their services, plus TfL staff can use GTR services in the Central area. Eurostar staff get a PTAC in exchange for a generous fare deal that beats FIP prices.

Your beef is probably with your employers - perhaps talk to them about coming to an arrangement with TfL.

As for staff abusing their passes, that's at their own risk. I wouldn't use that to try and inform policy.

I would love to know more about the Cross London transfer, to save me from opening a new thread. Does this include unlimited travel if for example I was going from Kings Cross to Victoria, this would be Terminals - Z1256 right ? . I was at the ticket office the other day they offered me underground on a ticket from London to Essex, checking the normal app I saw no option for this fare at public rate that included underground so am baffled at how the advisor was able to offer me underground which I presume is the cross transfer but am also unsure if this is unlimited with 1-6.
Can I get a Priv monthly which includes priv LU I strongly doubt it but was intreged to find out you could do a cross London transfer, At PRIV on the LU.

such as freight drivers

I must agree with JerryNoah, the changes to staff travel conditions from 1.4.96. were a big blow to many (such as Railtrack staff) who joined after that date. However, this is nothing new and sadly the chances of obtaining a change at this late stage seem very slim to me. Union representations on staff conditions of travel after the change were not taken up by the new TOC’s.

Those joining the new BR, 1.1.48. found that their Priv seasons (outside London) allowed eight free miles, while those who were employed before that date were allowed 12 free miles. Concessions changed when parts of BR were disposed or sold off. Examples are; Caledonian McBrayne 1.1.71. Tyne & Wear Metro 11.4.80. and Wightlink 1.4.85.

I agree, I have no rights to complain the fact Railtrack and freight don’t get a thing, I do believe they get a 75% loan but not discounted.

Your union rep.

No!