I was found travelling with a railcard-discounted ticket and no valid railcard

[goggleq]

The agreed procedure if you are found on a train with a railcard-discounted ticket and no valid railcard is to sell a new undiscounted ticket, which will be refunded if, within 14 days, you present a railcard that would have been valid at the time the incident occurred. Since (a) you didn't purchase the undiscounted ticket; and (b) wouldn't have been able to present railcard which was valid at the time the TOC is within their rights to seek to either recover their loss through a private settlement or bring a prosecution under the Railway Byelaws or the Regulation of Railways Act.

In all likelihood, unless there are other aggravating factors they are likely to settle on a fare-plus basis, where the 'plus' is likely to be around £100 (to cover their costs).

- I am in the above situation. Do you recommend I go straight to the Prosecution Office in person and show how utterly remorseful I am and ask to settle straight away (I was never offered the option to pay for a full price fare, just had an MR11 filled in) and pay for any fines etc? Or do I wait for a letter that will be sent after 14 days, by which time they wouldn't have received any evidence from me of a valid railcard? Will that letter be a Warning, stating a penalty fine to pay, or is it more likely to be a Summons / Prosecution letter? If the latter, will I still be able to ask to settle out of court after receiving such a letter?

Basically, my question is am I better off going in person to their office to try and settle, or do I write to them now to settle (even though there's no guarantee I'll get a letter from them in 2 weeks, as my case might just slip off their radar?! - and so I may in fact incriminate myself by writing), or do I wait for a letter from them which I then respond to (and hope it won't be too late)?

Panicking here. And really want to settle this. I was totally stupid and am so ashamed. At the beginning of my career, so can't let this affect things!

Any immediate response with advice will be much appreciated, as I'm thinking of going to their office first thing tomorrow morning, as this happened on the 27th Dec, whilst the office was closed.

Thank you so much.

 

[najaB]

Any immediate response with advice will be much appreciated, as I'm thinking of going to their office first thing tomorrow morning, as this happened on the 27th Dec, whilst the office was closed.

Do NOT go go their office. Please. Due to the nature of prosecutions work, showing up announced to settle things in person could easily be mistaken for an attempt to turn up unannounced and settle things in person (i.e. verbal/physical assault).

While I know you want to get things sorted as soon as possible, it's really best that you just wait and see what their letter says and then take it from there.

 

[Merseysider]

Would it be correct to say that you don’t, and didn’t at the time of travel, own a valid railcard at all?

 

[goggleq]

Yes, I made a monumental error and I'm so ashamed and want to rectify this asap now that I have funds to do so. I want to buy a new ticket to cover the journey immediately and pay for any admin fees and/or a penalty fare, as I wasn't asked to at the time. I was only asked to fill in an MR(?) form without knowing what it was. I won't be able to provide proof of a railcard within the 14 day period and so want to deal with the situation now before the risk of being sent a letter prosecuting me, which would just be devastating as I've got my first job recently. I didn't feel able to 'fess up as I was with a work colleague at the time on the train and was far too ashamed to admit what I'd done.

If I don't go to the Prosecution office to speak to them in person as said should I write a letter/email immediately explaining myself and asking to settle and pay up now? - rather than wait for a letter from them? Is it likely that any letter from them (which I guess will come after the 14 day period) will be a Court Summons letter or a letter asking to pay a fine?

Your further advice will be really appreciated. If I have to wait for a letter so be it, but I'm terrified of the possibility of being summoned to court. I'm also worried that putting anything in writing will incriminate me when I may not receive a Summons letter, possibly just a letter asking for a penalty fine.

Thanks so much

 

[Fawkes Cat]

The contributors on this board will probably be able to give you better advice if you can give us a little more information. This is not so that we can identify you - but the different train operating companies ('TOCs') tend to behave a bit differently from each other. So please can you let us know

- what train company you were travelling with: if you don't know that, it would be great if you could tell us where you were travelling from and to;
- what you do for a living: we don't need to know who your employer is, but some jobs worry more about their people going to court than others.
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[221129]

- what you do for a living: we don't need to know who your employer is, but some jobs worry more about their people going to court than others.

This really isn't relevant or any use to any one trying to give advice on here.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

(Of my suggestion that it would be helpful to know the OP's line of trade)

This really isn't relevant or any use to any one trying to give advice on here.

- well, I think it is. There are some lines of business - those involving a great deal of trust, such as being a lawyer or a bank worker for example - where something that reflects on your honesty could be a problem. There are others - working in a manufacturing business perhaps - where an employer would have more concern about an employee's technical ability than about a lapse of judgement over money.

But we're here on this board to give advice, not to debate hypotheticals. Perhaps a moderator could split this to a separate debate if it is going to continue please?

 

[gray1404]

Question for the poster: are you an actual railcard holder? If so did you leave your railcard at home or did you buy a railcard discounted ticket for which you were not entitled.

I am assuming that the ticket inspector did not leave you with any paperwork or anything giving further instructions and you were told to wait to hear back. I say the following based on that assumption. You can do nothing now until you hear back from the train company. They will write to you in the post. Once you hear back from them: -

If you are a railcard holder and you left it at home you will need to send them a copy of the railcard to prove that you were entitled to the railcard discounted ticket on the day of travel.

If you are not railcard holder and you purchased a railcard discounted ticket wrongly you will need to write back to the train company explaining your error. You need to assure them that you understand the seriousness of this and assure them it is the first time you have done this and it will not happen again. The letter does not need to be long by any means but you need to offer to pay the correct fare that remains outstanding and any costs incurred them them in dealing with this matter.

Hopefully they will then write back to you offering an out of court settlement to dispose of the matter. You are more likely to be offered this if you have not been stopped by that train company before.

Which train company was it that stopped you and took your details? That will give us an indication of how they are likely to proceed.

Again, you cannot do anything until you hear back from the train company (assuming that ticket inspector didn't give you any additional paperwork with instructions on) so you need to wait. This can take anything from a few days to about 6 months depending.

 

[Merseysider]

Question for the poster: are you an actual railcard holder? If so did you leave your railcard at home or did you buy a railcard discounted ticket for which you were not entitled.

I fear you may have missed the OP answering that at the start of Post 4

 

[BluePenguin]

I think you should buy a new railcard to cover yourself for the future, if you don't have one already

 

[goggleq]

Question for the poster: are you an actual railcard holder? If so did you leave your railcard at home or did you buy a railcard discounted ticket for which you were not entitled.

I am assuming that the ticket inspector did not leave you with any paperwork or anything giving further instructions and you were told to wait to hear back. I say the following based on that assumption. You can do nothing now until you hear back from the train company. They will write to you in the post. Once you hear back from them: -

If you are a railcard holder and you left it at home you will need to send them a copy of the railcard to prove that you were entitled to the railcard discounted ticket on the day of travel.

If you are not railcard holder and you purchased a railcard discounted ticket wrongly you will need to write back to the train company explaining your error. You need to assure them that you understand the seriousness of this and assure them it is the first time you have done this and it will not happen again. The letter does not need to be long by any means but you need to offer to pay the correct fare that remains outstanding and any costs incurred them them in dealing with this matter.

Hopefully they will then write back to you offering an out of court settlement to dispose of the matter. You are more likely to be offered this if you have not been stopped by that train company before.

Which train company was it that stopped you and took your details? That will give us an indication of how they are likely to proceed.

Again, you cannot do anything until you hear back from the train company (assuming that ticket inspector didn't give you any additional paperwork with instructions on) so you need to wait. This can take anything from a few days to about 6 months depending.

Hi, thanks so much for your assistance.

In answer to your questions:

- I'm not a railcard holder.
- I was left with a small slip saying: 'If fail to carry, passenger to send a copy of their Season ticket or Railcard within 14 days to the address below. Failure to do so may lead to Prosecution. (Send to: Prosecution Dept. Room 114, East Side Offices, Kings Cross Station) Email: gtr.prosecutions@...)
- I was travelling with Thameslink from Bedfordshire to London St Pancras.

Any further advice given the above would be much appreciated. Should I just wait it out until I receive something in the post and then write a letter as you say? What's the likelihood of them accepting an out of court settlement?

Many thanks.

 

[najaB]

Any further advice given the above would be much appreciated. Should I just wait it out until I receive something in the post and then write a letter as you say? What's the likelihood of them accepting an out of court settlement?

Just to clarify, what exactly did you say to the ticket examiner/guard? That you didn't have a railcard or that you didn't have it with you?

 

[BluePenguin]

Could the OP now buy a railcard and send in a photo of it?

 

[najaB]

Could the OP now buy a railcard and send in a photo of it?

They could. It wouldn't help them in the slightest though since the purchase date would be subsequent to date of the offence.

 

[falcon]

Could the OP now buy a railcard and send in a photo of it?

No because it has to be in date at the time of the incident.

 

[BluePenguin]

No because it has to be in date at the time of the incident.

They could. It wouldn't help them in the slightest though since the purchase date would be subsequent to date of the offence.

Ahh right. Well I guess that makes sense. If the ticket was bought at a ticket office then the staff member would have asked to see the railcard which wouldn't have been provided. Applying the discount at a machine doesn't happen by accident so there is no excuse really.

Hopefully if the OP apologises, coughs up some the difference in fare plus some compensation that should be the end of the matter.

 

[goggleq]

Just to clarify, what exactly did you say to the ticket examiner/guard? That you didn't have a railcard or that you didn't have it with you?

Hi,

I said I didn't have my railcard, but in reality I don't have one at all. I felt unable to tell the truth out of shame as I was with a colleague. I'm mortified and obviously want to apologise and pay up. Please can you advise whether I should just wait it out until I receive something in the post (I'm assuming I'll receive a letter after the 14 day window in which they've asked me to send a copy of the railcard) and then write a letter in response demonstrating my remorse and offering to pay up? Or should I write to them now saying I don't in fact have a railcard and would like to settle and pay the cost of admin fees etc? Is there a chance that any letter from them will only be asking for a penalty fine and not a letter summoning me to court? Would there in fact be a risk in me writing to them now as a pre-emptive measure, ie I could incriminate myself, giving them a reason to actually prosecute?

Let's say I wait until I receive a letter from them, and let's say it does summon me to court, what's the likelihood of them accepting an out of court settlement?

Thanks so much again for the help..! The situation's causing me a lot of stress and panic.

 

[gray1404]

There is no harm in you writing to them now. In fact the sooner you get in touch with them then the less it costs them to deal with the issue and you might be looking at lower out of court settlement. GTR have been known to offer these. They are more likely to offer this if you have never been stopped by them before and found to be in the wrong or previously issued with a penalty fare. You could send them an email quoting the reference number of the price of paper you were given along with your name and address.

In your email, which only needs to be short, you need to admit that you were travelling on a railcard discounted ticket when you are not actually a railcard holder. You should assure them that this was a temporary error of judgement and it is the first time you have ever done such a thing (which I am assuming it is) and assure them that you realise the seriousness of your mistake and that it will never happen again. You should then offer to pay the outstanding rail fare along with any costs that they have incurred in dealing with this matter.

You can post your letter/email on here for proof reading before you send it.

It is up to you if you send it now or wait to hear from them. Of course if you get in touch with them before the 14 days is up then it will cost them less to deal with it and it may stop it progressing further. There is always however a very small chance that if you don't get in touch with them your case may be overlooked, paperwork lost, not dealt with within the time limits etc or indeed they decide to take no further action (which I highly doubt they would decide on)... and you either never hear anything back. However, the chances of this are very slim I must stress but it is up to you if you want to contact them first.

 

[Haywain]

You should assure them that this was a temporary error of judgement and it is the first time you have ever done such a thing (which I am assuming it is)

I would assume that it wasn't the first time, and I suspect that the TOC might do the same. In these circumstances I would say it's odds on that it has happened before, and more than once.

Applying the discount at a machine doesn't happen by accident so there is no excuse really.

Which is probably how the TOC will look at it. It might even depend on which railcards it was (or wasn't).

 

[farleigh]

I would assume that it wasn't the first time, and I suspect that the TOC might do the same. In these circumstances I would say it's odds on that it has happened before, and more than once.

Which is probably how the TOC will look at it. It might even depend on which railcards it was (or wasn't).

Is there any evidence for this?

 

[Darandio]

Is there any evidence for this?

Well no, but I don't think it makes any difference in terms of the thread discussion. The OP has already admitted to lying, taking the story from no valid railcard to not having a railcard at all.

It isn't a wild assumption to think that this wasn't the first time they had travelled in these circumstances, it's just the first time they got caught doing so. It wouldn't be unreasonable for a TOC to assume the same thing, proving it would be a different matter entirely.

And even if we pose the question to the OP whether this was the only time, why would their answer be believable given they had lied already?

 

[Haywain]

Is there any evidence for this?

The bit you've highlighted is my thoughts so, no, of course there isn't any evidence!

 

[acned]

It doesn't sound as though you have been issued with a penalty fare, therefore if you were not billed there and then, the inspector will have cautioned you and noted what you told him, and then issued the MG11.
Personally, I would urge you to speak to someone properly versed in legal matters and seek their advice once you receive further communication from the train operator.

 

[goggleq]

There is no harm in you writing to them now. In fact the sooner you get in touch with them then the less it costs them to deal with the issue and you might be looking at lower out of court settlement. GTR have been known to offer these. They are more likely to offer this if you have never been stopped by them before and found to be in the wrong or previously issued with a penalty fare. You could send them an email quoting the reference number of the price of paper you were given along with your name and address.

In your email, which only needs to be short, you need to admit that you were travelling on a railcard discounted ticket when you are not actually a railcard holder. You should assure them that this was a temporary error of judgement and it is the first time you have ever done such a thing (which I am assuming it is) and assure them that you realise the seriousness of your mistake and that it will never happen again. You should then offer to pay the outstanding rail fare along with any costs that they have incurred in dealing with this matter.

You can post your letter/email on here for proof reading before you send it.

It is up to you if you send it now or wait to hear from them. Of course if you get in touch with them before the 14 days is up then it will cost them less to deal with it and it may stop it progressing further. There is always however a very small chance that if you don't get in touch with them your case may be overlooked, paperwork lost, not dealt with within the time limits etc or indeed they decide to take no further action (which I highly doubt they would decide on)... and you either never hear anything back. However, the chances of this are very slim I must stress but it is up to you if you want to contact them first.

Hi, thanks for your help with this!

How can I send you a draft letter via a private message? I'd like to do this this morning to send off a letter by the end of the day hopefully.

 

[goggleq]

They could. It wouldn't help them in the slightest though since the purchase date would be subsequent to date of the offence.

Hi najaB, would it be possible for me to send you a private message with a draft letter, this morning? I'd rather continue a conversation with you that way as your advice so far (and with others, as I can see) has been really helpful.

How do I go about sending you a private message?

Thanks so much.

 

[najaB]

Hi, thanks for your help with this!

How can I send you a draft letter via a private message? I'd like to do this this morning to send off a letter by the end of the day hopefully.

I appreciate your eagerness to get this sorted, but could I suggest holding off on sending a letter until you know exactly what you are dealing with.

You don't want to risk providing them information that changes their mind from a slap on the wrist to a full-blown prosecution and, more importantly, you don't have a case reference yet. Correspondence without a reference has a habit of getting mislaid or going missing.

 

[gray1404]

Yes that's fine, click on my username then select to send a private message to me.

 

[goggleq]

I appreciate your eagerness to get this sorted, but could I suggest holding off on sending a letter until you know exactly what you are dealing with.

You don't want to risk providing them information that changes their mind from a slap on the wrist to a full-blown prosecution and, more importantly, you don't have a case reference yet. Correspondence without a reference has a habit of getting mislaid or going missing.

Hi,

I do have a code/number on the slip I was given, would this be the case reference?

I appreciate what you're saying, and you may well be right. Would you mind if I send you privately the letter I have drafted anyway, just for you to feedback, and if you still think it's not the right time to send I shan't do so?

Thank you

 

[goggleq]

Yes that's fine, click on my username then select to send a private message to me.

Hi, I can click on your name, but can't see any option to send you a message privately...?

 

[najaB]

I appreciate what you're saying, and you may well be right. Would you mind if I send you privately the letter I have drafted anyway, just for you to feedback, and if you still think it's not the right time to send I shan't do so?

Thank you

Yes, I'm more than happy to take a look at it.