• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Ice disruption in Southern area 12/02/16

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bungle73

On Moderation
Joined
19 Aug 2011
Messages
3,040
Location
Kent
Why does there appear to be two different stories about this? One is that the de-icing trains couldn't run because of "over-running engineering works", but now NR are saying that they all ran as normal but it just wasn't enough.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

RichardKing

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2015
Messages
565
Why does there appear to be two different stories about this? One is that the de-icing trains couldn't run because of "over-running engineering works", but now NR are saying that they all ran as normal but it just wasn't enough.

This is why I have some confusion regarding the build-up of ice in the Plumpton area this morning. There was no block between Lewes and Keymer Junction last night - a rail treatment train could've easily ran on this line. According to Realtime Trains, there was no treatment train even scheduled to run along the route (i.e. not cancelled because of over-running engineering works). The weather forecast for the area did say that it would be a cold night. Based on this (and previous experiences), it would've made sense to send one out.

The only block on the Mainline East/East Coastway route last night was between Southerham Junction and Willingdon Junction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes and have done so, the incident I'm thinking of is maybe 5 years or longer back, where an 8car 377 hit a landslide just after the London portal of Merstham tunnel. Selhusrt sent out I think 8car 171 as the rescue train (1Z99), the incident did make it to a RAIB investigation.

I remember that incident! I didn't know about the 171 rescue though!
 
Last edited:

Sunset route

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2015
Messages
1,176
:D:D
I remember that incident! I didn't know about the 171 rescue though!

Was on duty that day, although it was my mate that got the emergency call (CSR), but worked the panel for an hour for meal break cover. Also there have one or two rescues from just north of Merstham tunnel because of the land slips up there over the last few years, but only one involved a class 171 rescue. If I remember right the 377 suffered brake pipe issues and the power was turned off. Although I can't remember now if that was because the con rail was damaged or just turned of while fitters attended the train, plus passenger rescue. Too many sleeps have gone by since then lol :D
 
Last edited:

nom de guerre

Member
Joined
24 Nov 2015
Messages
774
There was nothing 'main line' through Bromley South at around 7 this morning, though a broken down train at Sole Street can't have helped.

Everything diverted via North Kent after 2P52 encountered severe conductor rail icing on Sole Street bank. It didn't actually "break down", but progress was extremely slow (intermittent power, max speed 2mph).
 

Sunset route

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2015
Messages
1,176
I remember not long alter the 377s started coming on stream in force, getting stuck on one between Lewes and Plumpton on as was in those days 2F01 Easbourne to Gatwick Airport. Not very pleasant, train losses power, lights off, air con off, regains power again, lights back on, air con on and blowing ice cold air and repeat. I was bloody frozen by the time I got to work.
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
I remember not long alter the 377s started coming on stream in force, getting stuck on one between Lewes and Plumpton on as was in those days 2F01 Easbourne to Gatwick Airport. Not very pleasant, train losses power, lights off, air con off, regains power again, lights back on, air con on and blowing ice cold air and repeat. I was bloody frozen by the time I got to work.

Would that have played havoc with the train's TMS?
 

RichardKing

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2015
Messages
565
I remember not long alter the 377s started coming on stream in force, getting stuck on one between Lewes and Plumpton on as was in those days 2F01 Easbourne to Gatwick Airport. Not very pleasant, train losses power, lights off, air con off, regains power again, lights back on, air con on and blowing ice cold air and repeat. I was bloody frozen by the time I got to work.

If I remember rightly, there is a hill just before Plumpton that causes chaos when the problem actually is slippery rails.

Was that on a Saturday?
 

infobleep

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
12,557
Part of the issue from what I can tell is that the air temperature was bouncing like a yoyo in certain areas last night, which would have had a knock-on effect to some degree on everything else, and I should imagine it was pretty much impossible to predict where ice would form. From one hour to the next there were differences of ±3C in the air, let alone the ground or dewpoint temperatures. I was on an overnight Southern mainline service in the early hours of this morning and the arcing was amazingly bad - I'd not seen anything like that except in exceptional snowfall conditions. Obviously Control/driver/signaller were made aware but it was pretty hard to say what to do as trains on the BML overnight weren't actually losing all that much time at all, so services were still running fairly punctually from station to station until the branches went wrong in the early morning.

Regarding the Southern/TL network, the information from Network Rail is correct - some lines partly had the atrocious build up of ice due to combinations of line blocks and possessions other than in accordance with the timetable planned for overnight services. There were also a couple of cancellations of treatment train paths which in hindsight may not have been a terribly good idea!
That's happened before hasn't it. As in such train haven't run.

The Portsmouth to Eastleigh service was 13 minutes late into Waterloo tonight, don't know if that was ice related. It caused the 18.23 Basingstoke train to be delayed and my connecting train to Guildford leave Woking first.

At least the guard apologised. That isn't rare on South West Trains as a whole but it is rare on the 18.40, which for various, some understandable, reasons isn't known for its timekeeping.
 

Sunset route

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2015
Messages
1,176
If I remember rightly, there is a hill just before Plumpton that causes chaos when the problem actually is slippery rails.

Was that on a Saturday?

No it was when the 1st one up went only as far as Gatwick, mainline shunt 4 to 5 at Gatwick before forming the 1st down one back again. Seams like ages since we used to do that now.
 

RichardKing

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2015
Messages
565
No it was when the 1st one up went only as far as Gatwick, mainline shunt 4 to 5 at Gatwick before forming the 1st down one back again. Seams like ages since we used to do that now.

Do you know why the headcode was 2F01 as opposed to the current 1F01? The Saturday Eastbourne - Gatwick Airport runs as 1F01.
 

Sunset route

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2015
Messages
1,176
Do you know why the headcode was 2F01 as opposed to the current 1F01? The Saturday Eastbourne - Gatwick Airport runs as 1F01.

Timetable planners are a total mystery until themselves, what and why for is in the land of the gods lol. Not even us on the inside can get many things changed so they make better sense. :D
 

RichardKing

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2015
Messages
565
Timetable planners are a total mystery until themselves, what and why for is in the land of the gods lol. Not even us on the inside can get many things changed so they make better sense. :D

I can't argue with that!

It looks as if temperatures are set to drop again during the early hours of next week. Hopefully, they'll send a rail treatment train via Plumpton this time!
 

Sunset route

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2015
Messages
1,176
I can't argue with that!

It looks as if temperatures are set to drop again during the early hours of next week. Hopefully, they'll send a rail treatment train via Plumpton this time!

Late shift so I'll only hear about it and not get trapped in it, if all goes wrong, lets hope not. As the days of using converted di-icing units from 4subs with actual shoe gear and putting a 2EPB with shoe fuzes removed on the front of a 8CIG have long since gone when dealing with icy weather.
 
Last edited:

Diplodicus

Member
Joined
8 Mar 2013
Messages
214
Why is it, I wonder, that so many people think the worst of TOCs in such circumstances? Life is considerably more difficult for everyone, not just the passengers. Ice, fog, gales and floods are seen as poor excuses for operational disruption that is in nobody's interest.
 

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,842
Why is it, I wonder, that so many people think the worst of TOCs in such circumstances? Life is considerably more difficult for everyone, not just the passengers. Ice, fog, gales and floods are seen as poor excuses for operational disruption that is in nobody's interest.

No I cannot for the life of me think why Southeastern trains for example are getting so much flack on twitter today, real mystery that one :roll:
 

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
Ok, maybe the engineering trains did get a good run over it because of the above reasons. Surely, knowing that the temperature would drop last night, a couple of ECS 377s could've been sent to test the rails before the first passenger trains. The Lewes - Keymer Junction line is well known for causing disruption during icy conditions.

How can you run icebreakers when the lines are closed for overnight engineering work?
How many trains would you need to cover all lines once they were handed back?
Most lines are handed back shortly before the first train is due to run, what then?
 

Stow

Member
Joined
12 Oct 2015
Messages
76
It actually draws less current, to stop voltage spikes. All onboard systems turn down abit, abit like an eco mode.

You were right first time, ice mode on DC draws current down to a lower voltage limit (I=v/r, if r increases due to ice you need to lower the v at which you can draw I)

Principle is similar to old DC trains which would keep drawing current (I) down as the voltage of the 3rd rail dropped due to resistance caused by ice. Ultimately this would draw huge currents and burn through any ice, and also melt conductor rails in some cases
 

RichardKing

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2015
Messages
565
How can you run icebreakers when the lines are closed for overnight engineering work?
How many trains would you need to cover all lines once they were handed back?
Most lines are handed back shortly before the first train is due to run, what then?

It was the line between Southerham Junction and Willingdon Junction that was closed last night, not the line between Lewes and Keymer Junction.

ECS moves for testing the rails during cold weather should only be sent over known trouble spots (not the entire route). For instance, last night an ECS move could've been planned to run from Lovers Walk - Brighton - Lewes - Wivelsfield and then back to Lovers Walk. That way, the icy conductor rail at Plumpton would've been discovered prior to the first passenger trains this morning.
 

nom de guerre

Member
Joined
24 Nov 2015
Messages
774
What then?

If it hasn't been possible to run an overnight de-icing circuit, at least ensure the first train up a hill in icy conditions is longer than four vehicles.

And when that four coach train manages seven miles in two hours, follow your own ****in' Cut and Run policy and allow it to be assisted by the eight-car in rear, rather than insisting that it should keep running as it is "moving".

And... relax :)
 

RichardKing

Member
Joined
25 Jul 2015
Messages
565
What then?

If it hasn't been possible to run an overnight de-icing circuit, at least ensure the first train up a hill in icy conditions is longer than four vehicles.

And when that four coach train manages seven miles in two hours, follow your own ****in' Cut and Run policy and allow it to be assisted by the eight-car in rear, rather than insisting that it should keep running as it is "moving".

And... relax :)

The first train to run through Plumpton (that wasn't an engineering train) was formed of 8 cars. After the problems it encountered on the line, it arrived (without assistance from another unit) at Haywards Heath 132 minutes late.

Perhaps 12 cars would've made the difference! ;)
 

leaffall

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2014
Messages
76
You were right first time, ice mode on DC draws current down to a lower voltage limit (I=v/r, if r increases due to ice you need to lower the v at which you can draw I)

Principle is similar to old DC trains which would keep drawing current (I) down as the voltage of the 3rd rail dropped due to resistance caused by ice. Ultimately this would draw huge currents and burn through any ice, and also melt conductor rails in some cases

Since you seem to be knowledgeable on the subject of ice mode are there any benefits to it when on AC? Mitrac will prompt the driver to "CONSIDER using ice mode" when the temperature drops to 2c or below, regardless of traction current. Control often advise it's use between certain times, typically 7pm - 10 am, again regardless of current.


If I haven't selected ice mode it at the start of a journey south I tend to switch to it at Farringdon when changing the current, would it be better to select it at the first opportunity after being promoted?
 

Chrisgr31

Established Member
Joined
2 Aug 2011
Messages
1,675
It was certainly icy in Crowborough yesterday morning, in fact I just missed my train as I had to walk slower due to the amount of ice on the pavement.

On the issue of 171s rescuing the electric units one of the bits of work they are doing to the 170s is to change the couplers to allow them to connect to electric trains when necessary, there would be no point if they couldnt shift them have connected! There is however a distinct shortage of spare 171s, so if you are going to use them as a rescue train in the peak hours, it will almost certainly involve cancelling one of the trains that unit was already allocated to. That is not going to impress the passengers!

I was surprised there were no issues on the East Grinstead line with ice. Is that because it wasn't affected by the same weather or have they heated the conductor rail? There are quite a few times in the past when I have been on an electric unit between East Croydon and Oxted and it has had issues with ice. I know there were plans to heat some of the conductor but dont know how much.

Finally on the issue of other units assisting a struggling train I have on occasions wonder why it doesnt happen, but I guess the reality is its not that easy or quick. In order for it to happen the first train has to stop, the staff then presumably have to protect the train, the next train then needs consent to enter the section, it has to drive at a snails pace (and not get stuck!), the trains have to be connected. Off they go to the next station, the train is now potentially too long for the platform and possibly signal sections(?) so when do you split it back up etc?

Presumably historically without the same fail safe systems etc it was easier to arrange.
 

nom de guerre

Member
Joined
24 Nov 2015
Messages
774
The first train to run through Plumpton (that wasn't an engineering train) was formed of 8 cars. After the problems it encountered on the line, it arrived (without assistance from another unit) at Haywards Heath 132 minutes late.

Perhaps 12 cars would've made the difference! ;)

I was referring to the 2500 delay minutes accrued on Sole Street bank ;)
 

Latecomer

Member
Joined
7 Jun 2011
Messages
259
Control often advise it's use between certain times, typically 7pm - 10 am, again regardless of current.

If I haven't selected ice mode it at the start of a journey south I tend to switch to it at Farringdon when changing the current, would it be better to select it at the first opportunity after being promoted?

Is the 'advice' from control posted in the late notice case? It is at our depot and therefore given the wording of the notice is fairly unambiguous I use it at instructed between the times specified regardless as to whether the tcms issues a prompt. I would rather use it and skip about a bit than have to account for a train failure when I failed to use it. I know a lot of drivers don't for the very reason they don't like how the train handles over points and section gaps, but I would say it depends on where your notice is posted and on the precise wording of that notice - i.e. is it advisory or is it an instruction?
 

leaffall

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2014
Messages
76
Is the 'advice' from control posted in the late notice case? It is at our depot and therefore given the wording of the notice is fairly unambiguous I use it at instructed between the times specified regardless as to whether the tcms issues a prompt. I would rather use it and skip about a bit than have to account for a train failure when I failed to use it. I know a lot of drivers don't for the very reason they don't like how the train handles over points and section gaps, but I would say it depends on where your notice is posted and on the precise wording of that notice - i.e. is it advisory or is it an instruction?

Thanks, it's not in the late notice case, but I would still say it's an instruction. But hypothetically if mitrac advises it outside of the times instructed by control -which is when it becomes my decision - I'm just wondering if it has any real benefit when under the wires :/
 

westcoaster

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2006
Messages
4,223
Location
DTOS A or B
Thanks, it's not in the late notice case, but I would still say it's an instruction. But hypothetically if mitrac advises it outside of the times instructed by control -which is when it becomes my decision - I'm just wondering if it has any real benefit when under the wires :/

There is, I've been on a 377 where the driver forgot to put it into ice mode, the VCB's on both units kept on tripping out. With that the acm's and mcm's started to trip out. Always check on controls window, and the TV above as it's normally on there.
 

leaffall

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2014
Messages
76
There is, I've been on a 377 where the driver forgot to put it into ice mode, the VCB's on both units kept on tripping out. With that the acm's and mcm's started to trip out. Always check on controls window, and the TV above as it's normally on there.


Thanks, yeah I'm pretty good with it, will make sure I active it regardless of AC or DC running cheers
 

Stow

Member
Joined
12 Oct 2015
Messages
76
Since you seem to be knowledgeable on the subject of ice mode are there any benefits to it when on AC? Mitrac will prompt the driver to "CONSIDER using ice mode" when the temperature drops to 2c or below, regardless of traction current. Control often advise it's use between certain times, typically 7pm - 10 am, again regardless of current.


If I haven't selected ice mode it at the start of a journey south I tend to switch to it at Farringdon when changing the current, would it be better to select it at the first opportunity after being promoted?

I am less familiar with ice mode on AC, but there are issues with voltage spikes and interference and certainly changes the trains sensitivity to ice on the OHLE.

Ice mode should be selected both on AC and DC when recommended either by the train or via control.

Hope that helps!
 

SpacePhoenix

Established Member
Joined
18 Mar 2014
Messages
5,492
Do units with TMSs have any kind of external temperature gauge? If they do, does the TMS always suggest activating "ice mode" when the external temperature drops below a certain point?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top