IDEA: Heritage running of old Routemasters in London

[JoeGJ1984]

I was thinking that there should be a route for old Routemasters in London (the originals, not the Boris Routemasters which only loosely resemble the originals) - I know they're not disabled accessible, so I think there should be a heritage route. This, like a heritage railway, can be charged at higher than normal prices and need not be included on travelcards/oyster, etc. I.e. they're intended for people who want to ride an old routemaster "for the sake of it" (although it should connect tourist hotspots so people can use it to get to places).

 

[James H]

Route 15H already does this

 

[Flange Squeal]

This already exists - Routemasters operate shorts on the 15 between Tower Hill and Trafalgar Square, every 20 minutes between roughly 9am and 6pm. They also ran shorts on the 9, but they were withdrawn a few years ago on cost grounds.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I knew of these heritage routes; I thought they had/were going to be withdrawn or replaced by Boris routemasters. hat's why I thought a privately run service might be better; be nice to get something near the London Eye,a s it's one of London's major tourist attractions. Perhaps do a route which runs near tourist attractions. This means that there's no risk of them being withdrawn by TfL. Much like riding steam trains on a heritage railway. These ought to be preserved, and they are best done so 'in their natural environment' to allow them to be ridden by families,etc. or which I'm sure they will be popular, as they are an icon of London and appear on postcards, etc. Of course, for authenticity, they should have a conductor who takes the money and uses an old-fashioned machine that issues tickets when you turn the handle.

 

[Mal]

I think the basic idea is good, but I imagine the Health & Safety folk would have a field day, especially with the famous open door. Additionally there would be the cost of wages for the conductors / conductresses to be covered.

 

[alex397]

As already stated, the 15H already does this. However, it is under-promoted, and uses 'Dartmasters' without the original engines (probably has to with the Low Emission Zone).
Anyway, it looks like the 15H will become a weekend only service, which will further push the route into the background, and make it easier to be withdrawn completely.

A privately operated route could do well, as of course the Routemaster is popular not just with enthusiasts, but with tourists. However, how it will operate with the Low Emission Zone, as well as all the other bureaucracy and safety regulations, I do not know!

 

[Ianno87]

Would fall foul of the Equality Act due to inaccesible buses (9H and 15H got around this by being short workings on existing accessible routes)

 

[class387]

I knew of these heritage routes; I thought they had/were going to be withdrawn or replaced by Boris routemasters. hat's why I thought a privately run service might be better; be nice to get something near the London Eye,a s it's one of London's major tourist attractions. Perhaps do a route which runs near tourist attractions. This means that there's no risk of them being withdrawn by TfL. Much like riding steam trains on a heritage railway. These ought to be preserved, and they are best done so 'in their natural environment' to allow them to be ridden by families,etc. or which I'm sure they will be popular, as they are an icon of London and appear on postcards, etc. Of course, for authenticity, they should have a conductor who takes the money and uses an old-fashioned machine that issues tickets when you turn the handle.

The Route 15 RMs have been refurbished to almost original condition (tourists wouldn't care about the engine), but I agree with having conductors in LT uniform and having Gibson ticket machines to make it more authentic.

 

[carlberry]

I think the basic idea is good, but I imagine the Health & Safety folk would have a field day, especially with the famous open door. Additionally there would be the cost of wages for the conductors / conductresses to be covered.

The issue isn't Health & Safety it's insurance. Running something with people on with a big hole in clearly isn't safe (there was a bit of fuss this week when a tube train ran in routemaster mode for a while), you just have to have an insurance policy to cover it when people fall off of it and use no win no fee lawyers to sue you.
A routemaster has already been converted to Euro VI so the low emmision stuff is doable however until TfL withdraw the competition (15H) I suspect there isnt enough money to make anything else viable and, as London is regulated, you'd have to agree the service with TfL anyway.

 

[James H]

I'd love to use the 15H but the fact that you can't use contactless (only Oyster) has put me off on a couple of occasions when I haven't had my Oyster card on me.

 

[Dhassell]

As already stated, the 15H already does this. However, it is under-promoted, and uses 'Dartmasters' without the original engines (probably has to with the Low Emission Zone).
Anyway, it looks like the 15H will become a weekend only service, which will further push the route into the background, and make it easier to be withdrawn completely.

A privately operated route could do well, as of course the Routemaster is popular not just with enthusiasts, but with tourists. However, how it will operate with the Low Emission Zone, as well as all the other bureaucracy and safety regulations, I do not know!

Peter Hendys routemaster has a Euro 6 engine in it, so it is possible to bring them to LEZ standards if you had the money.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I think the basic idea is good, but I imagine the Health & Safety folk would have a field day, especially with the famous open door. Additionally there would be the cost of wages for the conductors / conductresses to be covered.

The problem with the open door is present on the 15H and the Boris routemasters so I don't think that should be a problem. As for accessibility regulations, steam-hauled trains on heritage railways aren't disabled accessible so I don't think that should be a problem either (it's like a 'heritage bus' rather than a service bus).

I started this thread after seeing this video:

 

[Ianno87]

The problem with the open door is present on the 15H and the Boris routemasters so I don't think that should be a problem. As for accessibility regulations, steam-hauled trains on heritage railways aren't disabled accessible so I don't think that should be a problem either (it's like a 'heritage bus' rather than a service bus).

Yes - they are, those using wheelchairs may be conveyed (admittedly unglamorously) in the guards compartment, or on some railways more glamorously in specially adapted vehicles with wide doors.

The law cites "reasonable adjustments". If no stations are accessible, and/or its a small railway with no suitable carriages then that would probably be the threshold of reasonability.

Plus most of the current major preserved railways pre-date current legislation, so I guess have some form of "grandfather rights".

 

[mmh]

The problem with the open door is present on the 15H and the Boris routemasters so I don't think that should be a problem

The awful "Boris routemasters" haven't been run with an open door (or conductor) for a few years now. They're all driver only. Only the early ones of them were built with a door that could be left open, later ones have a conventional externally sliding door. The original ones are a pain, the rear door swings into the passenger area in a very inconvenient way.

 

[telstarbox]

How much would you charge passengers if it was a standalone operation?

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

of course, there's nothing to stop anyone from buying a fleet of RM's and putting them on a "Round London Sightseeing Tour" as such they wouldn't have to be disability compliant as they wouldn't be considered to be employed on local bus service or express coach service... they would come under tour and charter legislation which doesn't have accessibility requirements.... now I wonder why no-one's done that?

Though it pains me to say it- I love RM's as much as the next person, and have fond memories of travelling on them- I think their "tourist icon" is overstated within the enthusiast community. The blunt truth is that, to a tourist, it isn't whether the entrance is at the back, front or you have to levitate through the roof to get on one... it's the fact that it is big, red and double decked that is the selling point.... to a tourist it is the red double decker that is an icon of London... not the fact that it has a quirky layout.

IF the RM was the key, why did Ensign sell them all off rather than putting them onto a city sightseeing tour of London... after all they are hardly ones for missing a trick are they?

 

[mmh]

of course, there's nothing to stop anyone from buying a fleet of RM's and putting them on a "Round London Sightseeing Tour" as such they wouldn't have to be disability compliant as they wouldn't be considered to be employed on local bus service or express coach service... they would come under tour and charter legislation which doesn't have accessibility requirements.... now I wonder why no-one's done that?

You're right, there is nothing stopping that, and that's why you still see them used for private tours and "party buses". What's your point?

Though it pains me to say it- I love RM's as much as the next person, and have fond memories of travelling on them- I think their "tourist icon" is overstated within the enthusiast community. The blunt truth is that, to a tourist, it isn't whether the entrance is at the back, front or you have to levitate through the roof to get on one... it's the fact that it is big, red and double decked that is the selling point.... to a tourist it is the red double decker that is an icon of London... not the fact that it has a quirky layout.

Sorry, that's nonsense. The iconic image of a London bus is something vaguely resembling a routemaster, not the same bus you can see anywhere else in a different colour. The same goes for London taxis, any car can be painted black. (Which is why every new London taxi model design has more than nodded to the one before it for the best part of 100 years)

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

You're right, there is nothing stopping that, and that's why you still see them used for private tours and "party buses". What's your point?



Sorry, that's nonsense. The iconic image of a London bus is something vaguely resembling a routemaster, not the same bus you can see anywhere else in a different colour. The same goes for London taxis, any car can be painted black. (Which is why every new London taxi model design has more than nodded to the one before it for the best part of 100 years)

I suggest you re-read my post... you will then see my point and also that I'm not talking nonsense...

nothing stops you from buying a fleet of RM's and putting them on a sightseeing tour... no-one {not even Ensign who purchased the bulk of the last 600 or so in service} has done so... which begs the question why?... and then I supplied the answer... that for tourists {rather than enthusiasts} the icon is the red London Double Decker and not specifically a RM

Surely, if the key was red RM then someone with as much commercial acumen as Ensign would have put them out on a tour to give them the competitive edge? and to think of it another way.... if the key was red RM... why did Arriva withdraw them all from their "Original Round London Tour" they couldn't have given that much of a competitive edge could they? which further suggests that it is Red London Double Decker that tourists think...

Don't forget... to joe public if it's a bus and it's big and it's red... it must be a London Bus!... more so for foreign tourists

 

[GusB]

Most tourists aren't going to know if it's an authentic London bus - haven't there been examples of non-London half-cab deckers being sent overseas, painted red and passed off as London buses? Stagecoach shipped Lodekkas over to Gray Coach in Canada (converted with offside entrance) to run tours over there, and they weren't even red! The novelty is that it's a double-decker, not that it's specifically a Routemaster.

 

[Condor7]

An advert has been running for sometime now on Radio Caroline, Radio Jackie and possibly other radio stations for a Routemaster touring iconic sixties locations around London. See the link below.

http://www.60sbus.london/

 

[Mal]

A lot of ordinary folk wouldn't know (or care) about the difference between a Routemaster or a National Express coach! Have a look at Ebay where folk are selling destination blinds all as 'Routemaster blinds' when they are from (for example) Bournemouth or Accrington! It seems to be a (legitimate?) trick to sell anything there, all you have to do is put 'Routemaster' and Mr or Mrs Public would believe it came from London!

 

[InterCity:125]

https://www.theclassictour.com/tour-info/

Step on board our carefully restored classic 1960s Double Decker Routemaster buses for a unique open top ride through the best attractions in the city.

 

[Typhoon]

Don't forget... to joe public if it's a bus and it's big and it's red... it must be a London Bus!... more so for foreign tourists

I think you are right.

I am old enough to remember when RMs replaced Trolleys in our area. I believe I am right in thinking that in the seventies Midland Red D9s (complete with 'BMMO' stuck on the front) were used on sightseeing routes because of a shortage of RMs - I think there was even an article in 'Buses'. Enthusiasts might have got excited about the lack of authenticity but I don't remember an outcry in the national press. They were rear entrance (with doors) double deckers that were old.

Similarly, I have been to Victoria, BC ages ago. I remember an RT (with roofbox if I remember right), but some were front entrance crew buses so not from the capital. They were pretending to be London buses. No one complained, they looked the part. I have even seen a Bristol VRT masquerading as a London bus in this country.

There will be potential customers who would want to ride on an authentic RM, but are there enough? As time goes on fewer and fewer people will be able to remember front engined buses, and of those that do, will they care whether it is authentic or not. There are heritage railways that use steam trains - were they authentic for that line? Usually not. Customers just want a steam train.

If the heritage bus is considered a prospect, former London Country RM types might be a reasonable idea as they at least had doors - if enough can be found in decent enough condition. Maybe alternate them with wheelchair accessible vehicles to solve accessibility issues. However, I'm glad its not my money!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I think you are right.

I am old enough to remember when RMs replaced Trolleys in our area. I believe I am right in thinking that in the seventies Midland Red D9s (complete with 'BMMO' stuck on the front) were used on sightseeing routes because of a shortage of RMs - I think there was even an article in 'Buses'. Enthusiasts might have got excited about the lack of authenticity but I don't remember an outcry in the national press. They were rear entrance (with doors) double deckers that were old.

You are right, they were owned by Obsolete Fleet and operated on London Transport's behalf

There will be potential customers who would want to ride on an authentic RM, but are there enough?

I would suggest that recent history teaches that the answer is in the negative... Just before the last couple of RM routes were converted to OPO TfL introduced TWO heritage routes to be operated by RM's, short workings on the 9 and 15 both running every 15 mins 6 days a week... in the intervening 13 yrs {is it really that long since RMs were retired?} the 9 has been dropped completely, the 15 has been reduced to every 20 mins.. and now there is talk of the 15 operating on less days of the week... all this, to me, suggests that there just isn't the market for a "heritage" service using RM's, and in fact that, as I said before, the icon is RED DOUBLE DECKER and not the type of bus that's painted red.. certainly on tourist tat the NBfL has become more prominent as the "icon" of London.

One last point to the RM afficionado's... remember the RM was greeted with horror by certain well known enthusiasts when it was first introduced!

 

[Typhoon]

You are right, they were owned by Obsolete Fleet and operated on London Transport's behalf

Thank you for reminding me of the operators. If they were anything like the D9s I was travelling on in the Birmingham area, then passengers certainly were not picky.

I would suggest that recent history teaches that the answer is in the negative.

I quite agree. There will always be some tourists who will want to travel on a quaint bus but to many a double decker is quaint (and to some any bus might be quaint). If it looks old, it will do the job. A Titan or Olympian might even count. I can't see significant demand amongst natives, there is not the same enthusiasm for buses as there is for steam trains.

.. certainly on tourist tat the NBfL has become more prominent as the "icon" of London.

Now THAT has given me an idea if this theme is resurrected in a couple of decades time.
Buy 2 or 3 BorisMasters from TfL (they won't have many uses after TfL) and use them for tours of London highlighting places and events associated with the great man.
"This is where the Johnson family lived after moving from Oxford."
"On the left is Boris' office when he was editor of the Spectator"
"From here you can see the office of the Mayor of London."
"This is the scene of the famous zipwire incident."
"This is where Boris gave the secret service the slip when going to meet his latest mistress*."
"This is where he lived before his second wife kicked him out."
"This is where Boris lived/ would have lived following the successful/ failed leadership bid of 2018/ 2019/ 2020/ 2021." (delete as appropriate)

I'm sure this will be of interest to our Atlantic cousins at least, he is half American after all (dual citizenship).

* - according to national newspapers.
​

 

[si404]

The free 362 seemed very popular today (the only day it runs), with lengthy queues despite quite a few Routemasters (inc red) plying the route and the sun being out (so walking wasn't a bad option, especially with the wait time).

Also in the Chilterns is a red Routemaster that can be hired for events (typically Wedding service to reception journeys) that is reasonably popular - it's out most summer Saturdays.

There's still demand for travelling on such vehicles on special occasions, even outside London, but whether it matters the rest of the time...

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

View attachment 52368
The free 362 seemed very popular today (the only day it runs), with lengthy queues despite quite a few Routemasters (inc red) plying the route and the sun being out (so walking wasn't a bad option, especially with the wait time).

Also in the Chilterns is a red Routemaster that can be hired for events (typically Wedding service to reception journeys) that is reasonably popular - it's out most summer Saturdays.

There's still demand for travelling on such vehicles on special occasions, even outside London, but whether it matters the rest of the time...

yes "free" is always popular... a "free" pop concert/ festival will always be better attended than one where you have to pay an entrance free... I daresay that if Whipsnade Zoo became free to enter then there would be a waiting list to get in...

As for private hires... well yes... if you're hiring something for your wedding then obviously a RM will be more popular than a Dennis Dart... much in the same way that many people hire a Rolls Royce for their wedding... I've never heard of anyone hiring a Ford Focus though have you?

 

[class387]

View attachment 52368
The free 362 seemed very popular today (the only day it runs), with lengthy queues despite quite a few Routemasters (inc red) plying the route and the sun being out (so walking wasn't a bad option, especially with the wait time).

Also in the Chilterns is a red Routemaster that can be hired for events (typically Wedding service to reception journeys) that is reasonably popular - it's out most summer Saturdays.

There's still demand for travelling on such vehicles on special occasions, even outside London, but whether it matters the rest of the time...

Yes, saw a queue of 100+ people queueing for the shuttle to the Amersham Heritage Day, so crossed the road where a very lightly loaded RF took me for an enjoyable ride to Chesham. When I got back from the rounder to Chesham (the bus was now heading to the Heritage day) some of the people waiting there still hadn't got on a bus!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

Yes, saw a queue of 100+ people queueing for the shuttle to the Amersham Heritage Day, so crossed the road where a very lightly loaded RF took me for an enjoyable ride to Chesham. When I got back from the rounder to Chesham (the bus was now heading to the Heritage day) some of the people waiting there still hadn't got on a bus!

so in fact, in large part, the popularity of the RM's today is that it was an event attended by people that have an interest in that sort of thing rather than bog standard Joe Public or Jonny Foreigner Tourist?

 

[class387]

so in fact, in large part, the popularity of the RM's today is that it was an event attended by people that have an interest in that sort of thing rather than bog standard Joe Public or Jonny Foreigner Tourist?

No, the popularity of the RMs was only due to it being the only form of transport to a completely unrelated event, hence why the ones in the opposite direction were empty.