*Idea* Long-distance South Western Franchise

[159]

What if an open access operator/ new franchise took over long distance services from London Waterloo?
Currently, passengers to far-flung areas such as Exeter, Bristol, Reading and Weymouth have to endure 444s and 450s and their rubbish seats, as well as relatively slow journey times due to all of the calling points (e.g. if I wanted to go to Exeter Central I would have to endure Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Grateley, Andover, Salisbury, Tisbury, Gillingham, Templecombe, Sherborne, Yeovil, Axminster, Honiton, Feniton, Whimple, Cranbrook and Pinhoe)

Whereas on other long distance main lines one would have operators such as Hull Trains, Virgin Trains, and Grand Central operating long distance trains so that the main operators (SWR, London Midland, etc.) could focus on their rubbish inner suburban and suburban services - such as by moving the 450s from Pompey direct to a much better environment, WAT-Windsor, where they could replace the dreadful 458s (and fewer 701s would be needed).

As mentioned, the rolling stock on the long distance lines would need to be replaced. How about Meridians from EMT for the WoE and 442s for the Portsmouth line (already done, I know)?

Creating direct or semi-fast services to these destinations could create competition with other operators (much needed!) such as London-Portsmouth with Southern, and London-Reading, London-Bath-Bristol-Westbury and London-Exeter with GWR.

In my opinion this is a feasible proposal. What would you think?

 

[AlterEgo]

Not feasible for the sole reason that the service proposed would almost certainly be deemed to be primarily abstractive. That means, in English "not adding enough value to compensate for declining takings on the Govt-leased franchises it competes with".

Open access operators must tap into new markets rather the simply provide competition with lucrative franchises making a return for the taxpayer.

 

[Kite159]

How I wish my local station would be served by those Exeter services run by 444s or 450s

At least for Exeter if you want to pay a higher price you can go on the faster GWR service. The service levels are limited to the large single track sections west of Salisbury, a limited stopping service west of Salisbury towards Exeter would be nice but it isn't feasible in addition to the hourly stopping service.

 

[swt_passenger]

The long distance service to Exeter basically isn't the West of England line, it operates from Paddington using appropriate stock. The route via Yeovil Jn has infrastructure designed for only one train per hour stopping at almost all stations. A separate fast service would need significant redoubling and /or passing loops. Not any sort of priority.

444s (not 450s apart from the odd one or two) are the normal fare on Weymouths, and they are broadly equivalent to 442s.

London - Reading from Waterloo isn't the primary fast service, that goes from Paddington. I reckon 450s or 458s are perfectly adequate for that route. There would be no capacity for additional fasts to Reading from Waterloo, it is only a two track railway after all.

What's the point of going on about moving such and such a stock to the Windsors anyway? You'll presumably know already that Bombardier Aventra 5 and 10 car suburban layout EMUs are on order for the entire Windsor side service group - including Reading?

Not feasible at all.

 

[NSE]

I wouldn't say Reading is 'far flung'. And I'd also say that with most of these destinations SWR are the competition. Arrive at Exeter, Reading or Bristol and you can use the faster GWR services or if you want you can take the slower SWR option. Much like SWR are the faster options from Soton and Pompey, but if you so wish you can save some pennies and go with SN.

 

[nw1]

What if an open access operator/ new franchise took over long distance services from London Waterloo?
Currently, passengers to far-flung areas such as Exeter, Bristol, Reading and Weymouth have to endure 444s and 450s and their rubbish seats, as well as relatively slow journey times due to all of the calling points (e.g. if I wanted to go to Exeter Central I would have to endure Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Grateley, Andover, Salisbury, Tisbury, Gillingham, Templecombe, Sherborne, Yeovil, Axminster, Honiton, Feniton, Whimple, Cranbrook and Pinhoe)

Whereas on other long distance main lines one would have operators such as Hull Trains, Virgin Trains, and Grand Central operating long distance trains so that the main operators (SWR, London Midland, etc.) could focus on their rubbish inner suburban and suburban services - such as by moving the 450s from Pompey direct to a much better environment, WAT-Windsor, where they could replace the dreadful 458s (and fewer 701s would be needed).

As mentioned, the rolling stock on the long distance lines would need to be replaced. How about Meridians from EMT for the WoE and 442s for the Portsmouth line (already done, I know)?

Creating direct or semi-fast services to these destinations could create competition with other operators (much needed!) such as London-Portsmouth with Southern, and London-Reading, London-Bath-Bristol-Westbury and London-Exeter with GWR.

In my opinion this is a feasible proposal. What would you think?

As others have said, are 444s and 159s really that bad? If anything they're superior (less dense seating, less of a cramped feel) to a lot of contemporary inter-city stock, such as Voyagers and Pendolinos.

Exeter already has a fast London service from Paddington, surely the whole point of the SWR Reading service is not to cover London-Exeter, but journeys such as London to Yeovil, or Surrey, Hampshire and Wiltshire to Exeter?

And more controversially, do we really need yet more operators all getting in each other's way? We really need more of a collaborative, integrated system with less operators, not more.

 

[HowardGWR]

The clue to a faster service for the likes of Yeovil and Honiton is the redoubling of the line. Then a two tier service can be timetabled that dovetails to give faster journeys for those willing to change at Yeovil or Salisbury. The present service, although efficiently run, is a very tediously long one to endure.
My only caveat is that I just wonder what time savings could be achieved from Honiton with a stopper Exeter to Salisbury and then fast to Woking and Waterloo, over the present timings.

 

[swt_passenger]

My only caveat is that I just wonder what time savings could be achieved from Honiton with a stopper Exeter to Salisbury and then fast to Woking and Waterloo, over the present timings.

I think there's some discussion of that very issue in one of the SWR franchise threads - one of the current consultation points is about speeding up the DMU services east of Salisbury. Needless to say, people still seem to want them to stop at both Basingstoke and Woking.

 

[cactustwirly]

How I wish my local station would be served by those Exeter services run by 444s or 450s

At least for Exeter if you want to pay a higher price you can go on the faster GWR service. The service levels are limited to the large single track sections west of Salisbury, a limited stopping service west of Salisbury towards Exeter would be nice but it isn't feasible in addition to the hourly stopping service.

I seem to find that the GWR service is cheaper if you book advances.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I seem to find that the GWR service is cheaper if you book advances.

Though for those who prefer walk-up cheaper walk-up fares are of course appreciated.

 

[70014IronDuke]

What if an open access operator/ new franchise took over long distance services from London Waterloo?
Currently, passengers to far-flung areas such as Exeter, Bristol, Reading and Weymouth have to endure 444s and 450s and their rubbish seats, as well as relatively slow journey times due to all of the calling points (e.g. if I wanted to go to Exeter Central I would have to endure Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Grateley, Andover, Salisbury, Tisbury, Gillingham, Templecombe, Sherborne, Yeovil, Axminster, Honiton, Feniton, Whimple, Cranbrook and Pinhoe)....
In my opinion this is a feasible proposal. What would you think?

Well, others have explained why your proposal on the Exeter route is anything but feasible for a variety of reasons. But I'm a bit confused. When I used the LSW Exeter main line a couple of years back the trains were, er, 159s - that's your user name, yet you don't know they work that route?

And after reading so many negative things about SW Trains and their stock on groups like this, I was truly shocked - they were wonderful units. Clean, fast, quite quiet, LSW staff were tidy and polite, and the trains were largely on time.

 

[DerekC]

Well, others have explained why your proposal on the Exeter route is anything but feasible for a variety of reasons. But I'm a bit confused. When I used the LSW Exeter main line a couple of years back the trains were, er, 159s - that's your user name, yet you don't know they work that route?

And after reading so many negative things about SW Trains and their stock on groups like this, I was truly shocked - they were wonderful units. Clean, fast, quite quiet, LSW staff were tidy and polite, and the trains were largely on time.

The idea of a faster service is great, but as others have said, how? If only the line west of Salisbury hadn't been singled ....
I agree with your views on South West Trains (now SWR) - did Crewkerne to Exeter and back on Saturday and it all seemed to be working well, despite Storm Brian. The 159s are getting a bit tired, though. Personally I would prefer a 444 but that might be a very long wait!

 

[70014IronDuke]

The clue to a faster service for the likes of Yeovil and Honiton is the redoubling of the line. Then a two tier service can be timetabled that dovetails to give faster journeys for those willing to change at Yeovil or Salisbury. The present service, although efficiently run, is a very tediously long one to endure.
My only caveat is that I just wonder what time savings could be achieved from Honiton with a stopper Exeter to Salisbury and then fast to Woking and Waterloo, over the present timings.

Why would you need to change at eg Yeovil or Salisbury for the faster train - if there was one? If there were enough demand, and track capacity, surely you could run something like (say):

xx.00 Exeter St Davids - Yeovil Jcn all stops, fast to Salisbury, Woking Waterloo.
xx.30 Exeter St Davids - Honiton, Axminster, Yeovil Jcn, all stops to Salisbury, Andover, Basingstoke, Clapham Jcn, Waterloo

In other words, you cut out about 5-6 stops on each service compared to the current one on offer. That should give you a time of about 3 hours from Exeter Central - Waterloo. I think the current best time is around 3 hr 15 mins.

Of course, this above would need an extra path into Waterloo. I have no idea if one could be found.

An alternative might be to aim for sort of half-way house, by running two trains per hour on the Salisbury - Yeovil Jcn section, something more or less done in the peaks in one direction already be extending the Salisbury - Waterloo stoppers.

But what if you ran 2 or 3 x three cars and split/Joined at Salisbury? I mean like this, run your Waterloo - Exeter train as now to Salisbury. Then the front 3 or 6 cars run non-stop to Yeovil Jcn, then all stations to Exeter.
Your rear three cars run all stations to Yeovil Jcn. Terminate, and then run back to Salisbury all stations, where they wait for the following service from Exeter to join up for the run to Waterloo.

This would cut four stops from the Exeter trains, saving about 12 minutes for the longer distance passengers.

I would imagine this would still need some extra re-doubling between Wilton and Sherborne, but nothing like the extra work needed for two trains per hour between Yeovil J and Exeter.

 

[Parallel]

I'm not sure two trains an hour are needed between Exeter and Salisbury/London. An extra stopper between Exeter and Axminster could be good though, removing some stops at Pinhoe, Cranbrook, Whimple and Feniton from some (but not all) Waterloo trains.

 

[Kite159]

I'm not sure two trains an hour are needed between Exeter and Salisbury/London. An extra stopper between Exeter and Axminster could be good though, removing some stops at Pinhoe, Cranbrook, Whimple and Feniton from some (but not all) Waterloo trains.

I would say the likes of Sherbourne & Gillingham would made good use of 2 tph

 

[TheWalrus]

I would say the likes of Sherbourne & Gillingham would made good use of 2 tph

I agree with both of you to an extent. 2tph would definitely be ised west of Axminster as in my experience a 3 car 159 has often been full up. Although Sherborne and Gillingham could also make use of 2tph.

My aspiration would be for 2tph Waterloo to Exeter with some stops only served by 1tph so overall journey time would decrease.

 

[Starmill]

Though for those who prefer walk-up cheaper walk-up fares are of course appreciated.

You say that, but for someone travelling off-peak:

London Terminals to Exeter St Davids 'Via Honiton' Off-Peak Return £73.60
London Terminals to Exeter St Davids 'Via Taunton' Super Off-Peak Return £84.80

London Terminals to Exeter St Davids 'Via Taunton' Super Off-Peak Single £48.40
London Terminals to Exeter St Davids 'Via Taunton' Off-Peak Single £68.70
London Terminals to Exeter St Davids 'Via Honiton' Off-Peak Day Single £72.50

Slightly muddier at weekends or for someone doing a return journey on the same day (that would be a long day), but basically the walk-up tickets really aren't that much cheaper.

The GWR tickets are significantly better value for someone making a single journey.

Take the example of a traveller from Axminster making a single journey to London. If they don't mind arriving in London after midday, they can either buy an Axminster to London Super Off-Peak Day single for £62.50. If they instead request a ticket from Digby & Sowton to London, however, it they can get a Super Off-Peak Single for £48.40 which is perfectly valid to start short on at Axminster.

I suppose the main advantage is that you can use a Network Railcard.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm not sure two trains an hour are needed between Exeter and Salisbury/London. An extra stopper between Exeter and Axminster could be good though, removing some stops at Pinhoe, Cranbrook, Whimple and Feniton from some (but not all) Waterloo trains.

I think extra stoppers at the west end of the route are already part of the GWR franchise spec (but subject to confirmation). But everything points to them being used to increase local frequencies, not to replace calls in the Waterloo service.