Ideal use for 350/2

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Prestige15, 13 Jun 2018 at 11:12.

  1. Prestige15

    Prestige15 Member

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    Came up with a idea with the class 350/2 that will soon be withdrawn from WMT.

    Isit ideal if the a number of 350 (perhaps 7/8 sets) moved to scotrail, Refurbish to intercity style, similar to TPE 350/4, upgraded to 110 mph and used on Scotrail's possible hourly Edinburgh - Newcastle calling at Musselburgh, Drem (Providing North Berwick passengers a link twoards Newcastle without the need to change at Edinburch) then all stations to Newcastle?

    While the rest can be convert to third rail and sent to SWR as 450/2 creating extra capacity especially in the peaks.
     
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  3. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    why refurbish - they are high density commuter trains - and it looks like a crayloa solution to a non issue. I would prefer they stayed where they are tbh.

    PS - good luck fitting in your stoppers on that section of line.
     
  4. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Already addressed though, by 450s released to other routes following the arrival of the 442s. Indeed it is sometimes difficult to work out where these existing internally cascaded 450s will fit into the existing timetable, because nearly every peak period service is already running into Waterloo at full length...
     
  5. TheGrew

    TheGrew Member

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    Selfishly I would quite like to see them replacing the 319s (assuming enough units) up here in Northern Land. They could be maintained fairly easily at Ardwick assuming sufficient depot capacity.
     
  6. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    They won't be, we are getting Aventras instead.
     
  7. geoffk

    geoffk Member

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    Abellio Greater Anglia, South Western Railway and West Midlands Trains have all promised new fleets, which is good news for train builders, but these orders will displace a lot of relatively modern electric stock, including these 350s.

    Will growth absorb all these redundant trains? Operators want to standardise on large fleets of a similar type, so finding new homes for fleets of 30 or so modern EMUs may not be easy, a situation made worse by the scaling back of new "wiring" by DfT. Only around half of the 319s have found new homes with TOCs and those with WMT will be replaced by 2021. The bi-mode conversion is still an unknown quantity and we wait to see if it will work satisfactorily.

    We can expect the related classes 313, 314, 315, 507 and 508 to go for scrap as they are getting on for 40 years old. Recent third-rail emus have a recess for a pantograph to allow for future conversion to overhead AC so that may be an option unless the ORR can overcome its aversion to third rail "infill". Meanwhile CrossCountry has extensive running under the wires with an all-diesel fleet. Will the new XC operator want 350s for, say, a Manchester - Birmingham service? Unlikely.
     
  8. HLE

    HLE Member

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    This would be the most sensible option if WMT do get rid of them.
     
  9. TBSchenker

    TBSchenker Member

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    Ardwick depot is right in the way of HS2, it goes from above ground to below ground right there.

    The depot doesn’t have much of a future anyway, TPE will be using Longsight for the CAF stock and units, and York will be more than capable to deal with the 185s that remain with TPE.
     
  10. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    Indeed Ardwick gets obliterated by HS2 when it arrives. Does Longsight have enough room?
     
  11. 37057

    37057 Member

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    Care to explain this further?
     
  12. Clansman

    Clansman Established Member

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    Although there was talk of extending the Berwick-Upon-Tweed service to Newcastle, it wouldn't be ScotRail's responsibility to serve any of the Northern only operated stations North of Newcastle, so there's no chance they'd even seek to serve them.
     
  13. DanNCL

    DanNCL Member

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    I actually wouldn't be surprised if the ORR made it a condition that ScotRail had to serve the Northern only stations north of Newcastle if they wanted the paths. There are already plenty of limited stop trains between Newcastle and Edinburgh, and TPE will be operating that route as well soon, making it 4 trains per hour, all limited stop. There really isn't a need for more limited stop trains North of Newcastle, there are enough of them already and any additional services beyond the TPE services already confirmed would only be of benefit if they were to stop at some of the local stations, even if the Northern only stations served were only Cramlington, Pegswood and Widdrington.
     
  14. Agent_Squash

    Agent_Squash Member

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    Electrify the Furness and Lakes lines, refurbish the 350/2's, and you've got high quality stock delivering a high quality connection to Manchester to the Lake District.

    Would probably work better than the 331s on the WCML anyway.
     
  15. NotATrainspott

    NotATrainspott Established Member

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    There won't be any Desiros on the ECML. If ScotRail were to start running a stopper to Newcastle, it would presumably be easier to use a 385 based at Millerhill and capable of being looked after at Heaton alongside the other Hitachi trains.

    A wildcard suggestion for any displaced EMU fleets is conversion to self-powered operation. Obviously we have the 769 programme for creating EDMUs out of the 319s, and Alstom/Eversholt are looking at hydrogen for the 321s. The 350/2s might be a better long-term option for a service fleet once new self-powered technology has been proven.
     
  16. Wivenswold

    Wivenswold Member

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    I think you can safely add most BR-era EMUs to that list. New rolling stock in franchises thus far has rather set the bar for all of them, passengers the country over will expect shiny new trains now. Unless economic pressures make the cost of new stock prohibitive, the cull of BR stock will continue apace over the next 5-6 years.
     
  17. TRAX

    TRAX Member

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  18. DanNCL

    DanNCL Member

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    Heaton already service 185s, so they're just as capable of servicing Desiros as they are of servicing 385s, if anything it's likely that 185s and 350s have more in common than 800s and 385s do.
     
  19. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    What's this long-standing idea that the Class 185s have anything in common with the rest of the UK Desiros? The only parts they will be likely to share are a few structural components and the moniker.
     
  20. DanNCL

    DanNCL Member

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    On the other hand all 385s have in common with the IEPs are the traction eqiupment...
     
  21. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    Both will be maintained at Craigentinny, however.
     
  22. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    350/2s don't have the ability to have 3rd Rail shoes etc added as far as I know. When the 350s were used by Southern they had to be 350/1s which were originally going to be 450s.
     
  23. Clansman

    Clansman Established Member

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    This.

    I can understand the logic in calling at Morpeth and Alnmouth, but if there was a burning desire to have more services calling at the Chathill, Cramlington, Pegswood, and Widdrington, then there would be a requirement to do so written within the Northern franchise agreement. Given there isn't, it is safe to say that there is no necessary reason or requirement for ScotRail to serve them should they ever be granted the paths to serve Newcastle.
     
    Last edited: 14 Jun 2018 at 07:58
  24. TBSchenker

    TBSchenker Member

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    Yes, ok then.

    As mentioned, Ardwick is in the way of the HS2 line from Manchester Piccadilly, where the line transitions from above ground to below ground.

    Also, this press release

    http://www.railtechnologymagazine.c...arded-maintenance-contract-for-new-tpe-trains

    from two years ago states that Alstom has won the contract to maintain the 397s and mk 5s. Whilst Longsight is not specifically mentioned, Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow are - current Alston depots are Longsight, Edge Hill and Polmadie.


    29 185s are planned to remain with TPE, and 185s will work the Manchester-Leeds/Hull and Manchester-Cleethorpes route. So York should be able to manage to maintain the remaining 185s, given not all will be there each night, outbasing at Hull, Sheffield, Cleethorpes and Manchester.
     
  25. NotATrainspott

    NotATrainspott Established Member

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    That's a fairly major part of the train.

    The options would be:

    1. Use 385s, with their normal home depot up at Millerhill and Craigentinny ideally suited for their operator ScotRail, and have occasional maintenance done at Heaton alongside other Hitachi products which will share technologies. Also, 385s are the trains currently proposed for any extra ScotRail services along the ECML.
    2. Use 350s, which are completely alien to the ECML. After the 385s are introduced the 380s will be used almost entirely around Glasgow. Scotland-end maintenance would require a transfer over to Shields, while Newcastle-end maintenance depends on how closely related electric Desiros are to 185s. Even then Heaton isn't the main base for the 185 fleet.
     
  26. geoffk

    geoffk Member

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    If the EMT Norwich - Liverpool is split at Nottingham, as the DfT say they are "minded" to do in the next franchise, and TPE takes over the Liverpool end, then another six 185s will be needed, making it 35 in total (more if six-car trains are operated).
     
  27. DanNCL

    DanNCL Member

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    Cramlington is actually larger than Morpeth is, however Morpeth gets more calls as it's the county town, and Alnmouth, which is a village smaller than Pegswood and Widdrington, only gets calls because it's used by people travelling to/from Alnwick. Cramlington has 10 well used buses to Newcastle per hour, which as they're operated by Arriva, Northern see no reason to compete with them as Arriva will be getting the revenue regardless which option passengers use. There is a demand for a more frequent local service on the ECML north of Newcastle.

    Acklington and Chathill are both very small places unlikely to produce much demand, and Manors already has a very good Metro service into Newcastle, hence why I didn't include those three stations in my suggestion.
    Your original point was that 385s could be serviced overnight at Heaton, because 800s will also be serviced overnight there and both 385s and 800s will both be maintained at Craigentinny. The same could easily be argued for the 350s as they're maintained alongside 185s at Ardwick. The extent of maintenance carried out on 800s at Heaton will be no more than the extent of maintenance already carried out on 185s at Heaton.

    There are actually two other options:
    3. Use 365s, with their normal home depot of Millerhill (or is it Shields Road?) suited for ScotRail, and have occasional maintenance done at Heaton, alongside another BREL product (158s, although they probably don't have much in common with 365s). Considering the issues that have been had with the 385s, it'd be very surprising if any of the options were taken up unless Hitachi offered them for free, therefore I personally think 365s would be just as likely as 385s.
    4. Use 158s, which are already based at Haymarket, ideal for an Edinburgh based service, and some will also be based at Heaton very soon, making both depots locations well suited to maintaining them. Only two issues with this option are 158s are slower than the other options, and ScotRail currently have a DMU shortage (though hopefully won't once the 385s are in service)
     
  28. 37057

    37057 Member

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    Cheers.

    But what I'm failing to grasp is how York can handle the maintenance. They only have a pit road that is suited to exam work (which are all done at Ardwick anyway). My understanding is that York is to be adapted to accommodate loco hauled sets in the future.

    What do you think about the new siding roads going in at Ardwick which begin to be put up from August?
     
  29. TheGrew

    TheGrew Member

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    I am interested in this as well. As far as I am aware the only depots setup for heavy 1st Gen Desiro maintenance (and thus owned by Siemens) are Ardwick, St Denys (Southampton) and Northampton.
     
  30. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Not impossible though. It’s only a question of paying for the changes.
     

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