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Ideas for future High Speed Railway lines

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Halish Railway

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Post, HS2 what High Speed Railway lines should be built?

I think that HS3 (or NPR) should be built first from Liverpool to York, with intermediate stops at Widnes/Runcorn (new station), Manchester Airport, Manchester Piccadilly, Bradford, Leeds and York.

Hull would be served the upgraded and electrified Selby line.

Once money is available, the line could be extended to Newcastle and then to the Scottish Central belt, linking with the proposed High Speed Scotland line.

In the central York to Manchester section, the line would have a top speed of 125MPH, cutting costs making the project much more likely to be delivered.

The York to Scotland section would be a true High Speed Railway line, being served by services that would also use HS2.

Further South, I believe that a chord linking HS2 and East-West Rail (once electrified down to Didcot) allowing for direct services from Oxford, Reading and maybe Heathrow if a Western link is built to the Midlands and the North via HS2.

What are your thoughts and opinions? What High Speed Railway lines would you like to see built?
 
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hexagon789

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Perth-Kinnaber Junction using the former Strathmore route alignment with a new TGV-style station at Forfar.
 

TheDavibob

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Further South, I believe that a chord linking HS2 and East-West Rail (once electrified down to Didcot) allowing for direct services from Oxford, Reading and maybe Heathrow if a Western link is built to the Midlands and the North via HS2.

There's no extra capacity on HS2 south of Birmingham, which unfortunately scuppers this idea. Reading is reasonably well served via Old Oak anyway, but Oxford (which, to be honest, is small) misses out on direct benefits. Reasonable enhancements of the classic network from Southhampton to Birmingham would be a more useful use of resources.

I've always liked the idea of a western HS link, from Bristol/Cardiff to Birmingham. This would necessarily have to approach Birmingham from the south east (to work with the in-progress network) but I think there's space to loop around and connect roughly at Birmingham Interchange, without impinging on capacity in the south. With NPR and High-Speed Scotland, as well as potentially upping the line speed of the Great Western mainline, this would put every large urban area in Great Britain* with a direct high speed connection to every other.

*Except Southampton-Portsmouth, sadly. And Leicester, which has the same problem as Nottingham-Derby in that the East Midlands cities aren't quite in the right place for a convenient network.
 

GreatAuk

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I've always liked the idea of a western HS link, from Bristol/Cardiff to Birmingham. This would necessarily have to approach Birmingham from the south east (to work with the in-progress network) but I think there's space to loop around and connect roughly at Birmingham Interchange, without impinging on capacity in the south. With NPR and High-Speed Scotland, as well as potentially upping the line speed of the Great Western mainline, this would put every large urban area in Great Britain* with a direct high speed connection to every other.

I like that idea too - the GWML already provides a reasonably fast journey from Cardiff and Bristol to London (even more so if they get 140mph running eventually), but they're still a bit cut off from Birmingham and the North.

My crayon drawings put a nice new tunnel between Cardiff and Bristol for high speed trains, with new new underground stations adjacent to the existing stations for easy interchange. Going North there would be a new link to the GWML (for Cardiff-London trains to use), and then it would go straight to Birmingham, where it would tunnel in from the South West and link up to an underground Curzon Street station to allow through trains to Manchester and Leeds. This route would really connect together much more of the country, and provide a much more competitive alternative to
driving between the South West and the North. (In my experience of travelling down to Bristol from the North West, driving is quicker outside rush hour)

Might release some capacity for Worcester Parkway to get some Cross Country trains too, you never know!
 
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The Ham

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Some new lines probably along the lines of:
- London, Cambridge, Leeds/York
- London, Southampton, Havant, Brighton, London
- London, Bristol, Birmingham (options for spurs to or towards Cardiff and Exeter)
(That then covers most of the main lines out of London freeing up space for other services on these lines and providing a good spread of regional hubs)

In parallel to the above extend the extent of HS2's lines and build a East West line, with spurs, to better connect the Northern cities. As well as looking at some routes, or at least some milage if not whole routes, in Scotland.

When complete most longer distance Intercity services would be able to benefit from the new lines.
 

DPWH

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I think people get their crayons out in the wrong places. The best improvements would be to the existing system on the continent, particularly:

(1) Antwerp-Ghent and then splitting with one branch south to Lille and one west to Calais (to (try to) get London-Holland trains down to about 3 hrs), but also useful for Amsterdam-Paris, Amsterdam-Lille, and relieve congestion through Brussels.
(2) LGV Picardie (saves 20 mins on London-Paris but to relieve the main LGV Nord from London-Lille
(3) A tunnel under the Sonian Forest to connect Belgian HSL-1 to HSL-2, enabling London-Cologne trains to bypass Brussels, and to try to open London-Frankfurt up to a reasonable time.
 

The Ham

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Glasgow - Belfast.
Huge cost, huge benefit.

Given Brexit and the options for a continuation of no physical boarder between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, such a rail link may need passengers to have a passport check. That's not too say it won't happen, but it does put the costs for it (both in terms of construction costs, in the need for separate secured platforms, and for operational costs).
 

HSTEd

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Any Irish Sea crossing must be a combined road and rail scheme with a drive through crossing.

As for a pure high speed line, how about
London - Cambridge - Peterborough - Lincoln - Doncaster (where it can join HS2)

It cuts 40km off the Leeds-London route, and relieves the HS2 core.
 

Holly

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Given Brexit and the options for a continuation of no physical boarder between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, such a rail link may need passengers to have a passport check. ...
I don't see the DUP allowing that.

A little piece of history that I did not know until recently and I found to be astounding -
At the time of the Pearl Harbor attacks, Churchill sent De Valera an offer. If Ireland would join the war against Germany, Italy, Japan then Britain would cede Northern Ireland to the (then) Commonwealth Dominium of Ireland. "Now or never, one nation." were Churchill's terms. It is reported that De Valera never even replied to the offer. All of Ireland could have had the same status as Canada, Australia, New Zealand.
 
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HSTEd

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Like the channel?
Cars and lorries conveyed by train.
The Chunnel has been a huge failure. The model is simply no more attractive than Ferries.

Any future crossing has to be a road-rail system allowing unrestricted driving over or through it
 

camflyer

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Any Irish Sea crossing must be a combined road and rail scheme with a drive through crossing.

As for a pure high speed line, how about
London - Cambridge - Peterborough - Lincoln - Doncaster (where it can join HS2)

It cuts 40km off the Leeds-London route, and relieves the HS2 core.

Or an extended version:
Brighton - Gatwick - London (eastern route through Stratford to link to HS1) - Stansted - Cambridge - Peterborough then northwards

As for an Irish link: Cork - Dublin - Belfast - Glasgow - Edinburgh.
 

MarkyT

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The Chunnel has been a huge failure. The model is simply no more attractive than Ferries.
Nonsense. The company may have taken a long time to become profitable given its enormous capital cost, but it's likely a road based solution would not have changed that, and a road tunnel would have to be larger and even more elaborate. The shuttles, especially the lorry ones, are very busy, and the company has been investing heavily for growth in this sector. What is particularly dissapointing is the low conventional rail traffic, especially through freight services.
 

HSTEd

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Nonsense. The company may have taken a long time to become profitable given its enormous capital cost, but it's likely a road based solution would not have changed that, and a road tunnel would have to be larger and even more elaborate. The shuttles, especially the lorry ones, are very busy, and the company has been investing heavily for growth in this sector. What is particularly dissapointing is the low conventional rail traffic, especially through freight services.

a road based solution would have annihilated the ferry business, and ferries clearly survive.
The market share captured by the Chunnel is still far below predicted estimates used to justify its construction costs.

Meanwhile comparable systems like the Fehmarn belt have eschewed this shuttle model that has to my knowledge not been copied by anyone else since
 

MarkyT

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a road based solution would have annihilated the ferry business, and ferries clearly survive.
The market share captured by the Chunnel is still far below predicted estimates used to justify its construction costs.

Meanwhile comparable systems like the Fehmarn belt have eschewed this shuttle model that has to my knowledge not been copied by anyone else since

Car market share has been as high as 58%. it was 54.9% last year. For trucks, last year Eurotunnel managed 39.1%. It's good that ferries survive to provide choice and price competition. Some people also prefer the sea voyage experience, while others are prepared to pay more for the quicker shuttle. I'm not convinced a road tunnel all the way would be safe over the distance with humans in control, and with IC engines still very much dominant, the ventilation requirements would be heroic. A part bridge, part tunnel solution might have been possible like the Oresund crossing, but that remains expensive at 50 euros a one-off single trip for a typical car. Such a solution in the case of the English Channel would have been enormously more expensive to build than the rail tunnel although would have been cheaper to operate.
 

HSTEd

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Car market share has been as high as 58%. it was 54.9% last year. For trucks, last year Eurotunnel managed 39.1%. It's good that ferries survive to provide choice and price competition.

Do we expect to operate the Dartford Tunnels separately from the Queen Elizabeth Bridge to "provide choice and price competition"?
The obsession with 'competition' and 'choice' in the modern world is becoming rather absurd.

It just creates another pointless cost tread-mill that must be navigated to avoid receiving an arbitrary punishment that only exists because the government decides it must exist.
Some people also prefer the sea voyage experience, while others are prepared to pay more for the quicker shuttle.
But a drive through option would win on price and speed.
So this option should be removed to create a marketplace for the sake of having a marketplace?
Should the toll of the Severn Bridge have been set to £100 to provide a budget market for the ferries that existed before it to continue operating in?
I'm not convinced a road tunnel all the way would be safe over the distance with humans in control, and with IC engines still very much dominant, the ventilation requirements would be heroic. A part bridge, part tunnel solution might have been possible like the Oresund crossing, but that remains expensive at 50 euros a one-off single trip for a typical car. Such a solution in the case of the English Channel would have been enormously more expensive to build than the rail tunnel although would have been cheaper to operate.

A return trip only costs 88 euros (you buy the annual subscription for €42 and the marginal cost of the trip falls to €23 or €14 off-peak) and the cost of multiple journeys falls to €23 each way.
This would generate enormously larger numbers of journeys from things like commuting and such that simply isn't feasible, economically or psychologically, with the current settup.

As for an Irish Sea crossing, it is drastically shorter than the Channel crossing and is comparable in length to drive through undersea crossings like the Fehmarn belt, and I can't see why any other model than a drive through one can be seen as acceptable.
The whole point of these projects is to encourage fast and easy passage between areas, not to generate another marketplace in which people can be fleeced by operators in it to make money by any means at their disposal.
 

MarkyT

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A return trip only costs 88 euros (you buy the annual subscription for €42 and the marginal cost of the trip falls to €23 or €14 off-peak) and the cost of multiple journeys falls to €23 each way.
This would generate enormously larger numbers of journeys from things like commuting and such that simply isn't feasible, economically or psychologically, with the current settup.

Actually, Oresund commuters can get an even better deal with 'BroPas Commuter'
From https://www.oresundsbron.com/en/prices

Do you cross the bridge more than 16 times a month? Then BroPas Commuter offers the lowest possible price.

Price per single trip per calendar month
Single trip 1 - 16 23
Single trip 17 - 50 5
Single trip 51 - 23
Annual fee: 42 EUR

As for an Irish Sea crossing, it is drastically shorter than the Channel crossing and is comparable in length to drive through undersea crossings like the Fehmarn belt, and I can't see why any other model than a drive through one can be seen as acceptable.
The whole point of these projects is to encourage fast and easy passage between areas, not to generate another marketplace in which people can be fleeced by operators in it to make money by any means at their disposal.

I don't see a Portpatrick - Bangor axis Irish crossing being very much shorter than the Channel tunnel. The Fehmarn tunnel is about half this and was originally proposed as a bridge but is now an immersed tunnel. At no point does the depth of that channel exceed 28m below sea level so I expect they can extend ventilation towers to the surface periodically if necessary. The Oresund channel is even shallower which made a bridge and immersed tunnel combination particularly attractive there, especially with its existing natural island en route. Any route across the Irish sea would be much deeper than this, down to about 250m in places. The English Channel extends to 40 to 50m deep with tunnel going down to about 75m. Whatever the type of crossing, tolls are set to recover capital cost from users. Whether the level of any such charge leaves any room for competition from ferries will depend on specific circumstances. Even if a drive through Chunnel had been possible, the greater cost might have resulted in even higher tolls than the current Eurotunnel fares, and that could have left room in the market for ferries to remain. The prospect of an unrelieved 50km tunnel drive, with no possibility of a break, would be very daunting to many people too and, for safety and capacity, speed through such a road tunnel might have had to be limited to around 80kph so there's no speed differential between different traffic, so travel time taken would not be very different to the shuttle, although wait time would at least be reduced (i.e at toll booths), if not eliminated. Alpine vehicular shuttle train exist in Switzerland and are popular, often being the only realistic option for certain journeys. It can be argued that rolling motorway trains over longer distances in Europe are also shuttles. Your argument suggests these are inherently inferior to real motorways on the same axis. The Swiss seem to disagree. Personally I think the depth of the Irish sea probably precludes any form of fixed link unless the oft-envisaged submerged floating tunnel concept becomes practical, and the stormy nature of the Irish sea might make that inapplicable anyway. Its certainly not in the same league as a Norwegian Fjord: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/norway-could-build-the-worlds-first-floating-tunnel
 

The Ham

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Do we expect to operate the Dartford Tunnels separately from the Queen Elizabeth Bridge to "provide choice and price competition"?
The obsession with 'competition' and 'choice' in the modern world is becoming rather absurd.

It just creates another pointless cost tread-mill that must be navigated to avoid receiving an arbitrary punishment that only exists because the government decides it must exist.

But a drive through option would win on price and speed.
So this option should be removed to create a marketplace for the sake of having a marketplace?
Should the toll of the Severn Bridge have been set to £100 to provide a budget market for the ferries that existed before it to continue operating in?


A return trip only costs 88 euros (you buy the annual subscription for €42 and the marginal cost of the trip falls to €23 or €14 off-peak) and the cost of multiple journeys falls to €23 each way.
This would generate enormously larger numbers of journeys from things like commuting and such that simply isn't feasible, economically or psychologically, with the current settup.

As for an Irish Sea crossing, it is drastically shorter than the Channel crossing and is comparable in length to drive through undersea crossings like the Fehmarn belt, and I can't see why any other model than a drive through one can be seen as acceptable.
The whole point of these projects is to encourage fast and easy passage between areas, not to generate another marketplace in which people can be fleeced by operators in it to make money by any means at their disposal.

There's one thing, and linked to some recent news stories, which would stop people being able to drive through long road tunnels of it were to happen.

As such I would be surprised if any new tunnels linking two places would allow people to drive themselves.

(I'll not give more details as to what as I don't want to make it too easy for people to get ideas)
 

HSTEd

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Actually, Oresund commuters can get an even better deal with 'BroPas Commuter'
From https://www.oresundsbron.com/en/prices
This is the kind of pricing that makes fixed links worthwhile - you have to be able to encourage people to move back and forth across the link daily if you want it to be viable.

A Chunnel style link will never prove economically viable because it strangles the market. It generates little more traffic than a Ferry connection would.

I don't see a Portpatrick - Bangor axis Irish crossing being very much shorter than the Channel tunnel. The Fehmarn tunnel is about half this and was originally proposed as a bridge but is now an immersed tunnel.
The Fehmarn belt is 18,000m, the Channel Tunnel is 50,000m
A Carrickfurgus (using the A2 (NI) or an extension of the M5(NI) on the Irish side) to Portpatrick routing would come in at something like 37,000m depending on your selected jumping off point. Probably somewhere in the vicinity of Whitehorse - the A2(NI) is already being dualled as far as Carrickfergus itself, and the railway there is literally on the beach so can be connected with relative ease, requiring only money for upgrades to carry the additional trains.

So yes, much longer than Fehmarn Belt, but much shorter than the Chunnel.
At no point does the depth of that channel exceed 28m below sea level so I expect they can extend ventilation towers to the surface periodically if necessary.

There is little need for this with modern tunnels, because immersed tunnels are not constrained in cross section in the same way as bored tunnels, they can provide sufficient cross sectional area to carry ventilation gases over very long distances.
Slightly widening the width of the dredging channel and widening the concrete boxes to be lowered to the sea bed does not drastically change the cost the same way additional bores do in bored tunnels. (And bore sizes are almost always selected to be as large as possible anyway).
The Oresund channel is even shallower which made a bridge and immersed tunnel combination particularly attractive there, especially with its existing natural island en route. Any route across the Irish sea would be much deeper than this, down to about 250m in places. The English Channel extends to 40 to 50m deep with tunnel going down to about 75m.

A combined bridge tunnel solution would be interesting here as the Beaufort's Dyke is narrow compared to the crossing itself, and a ~1900m suspension/cable stayed span with approaches could drastically reduce the maximum depth to be tunneled at, the dominant depth of the channel being substantially less than 250m.
Indeed the deepest current immersed tube tunnel in Instanbul is similar to the depths experienced across much of the channel.

Although a pure bridge solution is also a good idea as it avoids any of the ventilation issues, but is susceptible to weather problems.

Whatever the type of crossing, tolls are set to recover capital cost from users. Whether the level of any such charge leaves any room for competition from ferries will depend on specific circumstances. Even if a drive through Chunnel had been possible, the greater cost might have resulted in even higher tolls than the current Eurotunnel fares, and that could have left room in the market for ferries to remain.

I am perfectly fine with the capital costs being recovered by the users, as long as due attention is padi to the economic uplifts caused by the creation of the tunnel (capturing this economic growth is hard but an attempt should be made).
As long, ofcourse, as the repayment time on the capital is set to be comparable to the length of the life of the crossing, likely to be on order of 50-150 years.

The prospect of an unrelieved 50km tunnel drive, with no possibility of a break, would be very daunting to many people too and, for safety and capacity, speed through such a road tunnel might have had to be limited to around 80kph so there's no speed differential between different traffic, so travel time taken would not be very different to the shuttle, although wait time would at least be reduced (i.e at toll booths), if not eliminated.

With multiple lanes to play with, traffic can be divided between them as required and different speeds set for the lanes.
In either case very large numbers of people drive more than 50km without a break all the time.
Also why would you set a speed lower than 55mph/90kph, as that is what lorries are required to be limited to?

Alpine vehicular shuttle train exist in Switzerland and are popular, often being the only realistic option for certain journeys. It can be argued that rolling motorway trains over longer distances in Europe are also shuttles. Your argument suggests these are inherently inferior to real motorways on the same axis. The Swiss seem to disagree. Personally I think the depth of the Irish sea probably precludes any form of fixed link unless the oft-envisaged submerged floating tunnel concept becomes practical, and the stormy nature of the Irish sea might make that inapplicable anyway. Its certainly not in the same league as a Norwegian Fjord: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/07/norway-could-build-the-worlds-first-floating-tunnel


The Swiss lorry carrying trains are known to haemmorhage huge sums of money, and punitive tarrifs are set on heavy lorries on Swiss motorways in order to force their use, it is hardly a good example of how these systems can be competitive in this context.
The Archimedes tunnel would indeed solve all these issues, but it would likely be a sea-bottom tethered design that would be entirely unaffected by the surface weather, rather than one resting on floats on the surface.
 

Clansman

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Glasgow - Belfast.
Huge cost, huge benefit.
Rest in peace Police Scotland on Old Firm day!

Other than that I fully agree. It's a huge and underrated market I reckon. Probably up there with the EG.
 
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Clansman

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Can't disagree with your Scotland outline except diverting the HSL from via Blairgowrie, to run fully between Perth & Dundee instead, and keeping the Tay Chord from St. Madoes to Bridge of Earn, before running it from Dundee to Forfar along the A90 and breaking off at Laurencekirk as you outlined. Like the links to Falkirk & Dunfermline, as they merit Intercity links as much as Perth & Stirling. It's hard to make a case for bypassing Dundee IMO though.
 

MarkyT

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A Chunnel style link will never prove economically viable because it strangles the market. It generates little more traffic than a Ferry connection would.
Yet the channel tunnel operation IS now servicing its capital debt (obfuscated clearly by near collapse and rescue by banks) and making a profit. It was difficult in the early years I agree, but there is no evidence a more expensive solution including a roadway could have done any better, even if possible.
There is little need for this with modern tunnels, because immersed tunnels are not constrained in cross section in the same way as bored tunnels, they can provide sufficient cross sectional area to carry ventilation gases over very long distances.
Slightly widening the width of the dredging channel and widening the concrete boxes to be lowered to the sea bed does not drastically change the cost the same way additional bores do in bored tunnels. (And bore sizes are almost always selected to be as large as possible anyway).
Lots of fans, and that is assuming an immersed tunnels is practical or even possible at the length and depth involved for an Irish link.
A combined bridge tunnel solution would be interesting here as the Beaufort's Dyke is narrow compared to the crossing itself, and a ~1900m suspension/cable stayed span with approaches could drastically reduce the maximum depth to be tunneled at, the dominant depth of the channel being substantially less than 250m.
Indeed the deepest current immersed tube tunnel in Instanbul is similar to the depths experienced across much of the channel.
The Marmary link rail tunnel is no deeper than 60m beneath water level. It is also fairly short, with the immersed tunnel section about 1300m long.
I was surprised to find a vehicle ferry still running on the Sirkeci - Harem route, and many trans-Bophorus passenger ferries survive despite the three direct road suspension bridges across the strait.
In either case very large numbers of people drive more than 50km without a break all the time.
Not in continuous tunnel though. The concentration required versus the lack of stimulation strikes me as soporifically dangerous, then throw in a dash of claustrophobia... Maybe it could work with autonomous electric vehicles.
Also why would you set a speed lower than 55mph/90kph, as that is what lorries are required to be limited to?
That's basically what I meant. Set the system maximum at the speed of the slowest user permitted. No dangerous overtaking required.
The Swiss lorry carrying trains are known to haemmorhage huge sums of money...
OK a poor comparison, designed to keep polluting lorries out of a sensitive environment, which of course a tunnel isn't. By that measure perhaps new Alptransit base tunnels should also incorporate motorways!
The Archimedes tunnel would indeed solve all these issues, but it would likely be a sea-bottom tethered design that would be entirely unaffected by the surface weather, rather than one resting on floats on the surface.
That would solve it. Perhaps someone will build one of these one day. Probably best to prove the concept on a shorter link than the Irish Sea first though!
 

HSTEd

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OK a poor comparison, designed to keep polluting lorries out of a sensitive environment, which of course a tunnel isn't. By that measure perhaps new Alptransit base tunnels should also incorporate motorways!
That would solve it. Perhaps someone will build one of these one day. Probably best to prove the concept on a shorter link than the Irish Sea first though!

Even if we restrain such links to shorter ones than the IRish Sea there are many potential routes in the UK alone.
Its just a pity noone is willing to attempt to build one, so we can see how it goes.

Ideally every part of the UK would be connected to the mainland via fixed links that are independent of the weather.
 

D365

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Ideally every part of the UK would be connected to the mainland via fixed links that are independent of the weather.

Ideally, of course. But is that anything to do with UK high speed rail on its own?
 

najaB

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But a drive through option would win on price and speed.
Price, yes, but not necessarily speed. All it would take is one vehicle getting a flat tire or breaking down and chaos would ensue.
 

47802

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Of course with the development of Electric Vehicles you could potentially look at future road tunnels open to Electric Vehicles only which reduce the ventilation issues considerably.
 
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