Ideas for replacement trains on West Highland Line???

[peteb]

With aging dmu stock on this line what might replace them? There would need to be enough stock to cover diagrams plus reserves, sufficiently powerful to cope with gradients and flexible enough to cateer for busier periods. Personally I'd prefer to see loco + 3 + dvt trains, to cover bicycle storage, luggage etc, something like cascaded chilterns silver trains? Perhaps maintainable at local locations a good criteria?

 

[Energy]

Personally I'd prefer to see loco + 3 + dvt trains, to cover bicycle storage, luggage etc, something like cascaded chilterns silver trains?

Never happening.

I'd expect a 158/170 cascade.

 

[peteb]

But in an ideal world........? 158 very noisy, not much better than 156. I think there's great tourist potential in getting more comfortable, quieter trains for a 3hr plus run. But agree 158 likely in real life scenario, and they manage the mid Wales gradients ok.

 

[Energy]

But in an ideal world........? 158 very noisy, not much better than 156.

The very ideal world - electrification.

The more realistic ideal word - Stadler Flirts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

170s in an all table layout would be pretty good - excellent view out (and up due to the tapered bodyshell). Downside would be no gangways which would be less good for the portion working.

 

[peteb]

170s in an all table layout would be pretty good - excellent view out (and up due to the tapered bodyshell). Downside would be no gangways which would be less good for the portion working.

Like that idea, 2x3 car, one for Oban one for Fort William maybe? Big windows and properly aligned seats!

 

[Irascible]

170s in an all table layout would be pretty good - excellent view out (and up due to the tapered bodyshell). Downside would be no gangways which would be less good for the portion working.

I wonder how hard swappnig the cabs is. I doubt WMT would want to give up their gangway ones...

 

[JonathanH]

I wonder how hard swappnig the cabs is. I doubt WMT would want to give up their gangway ones...

There aren't any class 170s anywhere which have gangwayed cab ends. I suspect you are thinking of the WMR 172s which have a different transmission and aren't available for the West Highland Line.

 

[Kite159]

*pictures the fuel consumption of a 170 on the West Highland line as it sits in 1st gear pretty much the entire trip other than the short section under the wires at the Glasgow end, whilst making more noise than a 156*

Equally as unsuitable on the Heart of Wales line, especially with the suburban door layout releasing all that fresh West Highland air into the train at every stop.

Ideal world, some bespoke Flirts designed for the tourist market, enough to replace the 156s & 158s north of Inverness. Mix between tables & airline seats as not everybody likes table seats

 

[HamworthyGoods]

With aging dmu stock on this line what might replace them? There would need to be enough stock to cover diagrams plus reserves, sufficiently powerful to cope with gradients and flexible enough to cateer for busier periods. Personally I'd prefer to see loco + 3 + dvt trains, to cover bicycle storage, luggage etc, something like cascaded chilterns silver trains? Perhaps maintainable at local locations a good criteria?

Your post doesn’t make sense - you say the DMUs from the late 1980s are ageing and need replacing and then you propose replacing them with rolling stock built at least 10 years earlier in the form of the Chiltern Silver sets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There aren't any class 170s anywhere which have gangwayed cab ends. I suspect you are thinking of the WMR 172s which have a different transmission and aren't available for the West Highland Line.

There aren't, though if the Snow Hill Lines get wired at some point (as they should, being primarily suburban routes) they could be released before the 156s keel over.

 

[JonathanH]

There aren't, though if the Snow Hill Lines get wired at some point (as they should, being primarily suburban routes) they could be released before the 156s keel over.

I think it would be quite a jump to see 172s become the rolling stock on the West Highland Line, even with a refit to make them suitable from a seating point of view.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it would be quite a jump to see 172s become the rolling stock on the West Highland Line, even with a refit to make them suitable from a seating point of view.

Yeah, it does feel that way, though in practice they are more modern 170s and other than the seating (easily swapped) no less suitable (and indeed due to the transmission and gangways are more suitable).

 

[xotGD]

Cascaded Mark 4s with 67s.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Short term a cascade of 158's or 170's. Longer term the Scottish rail decarbonisation plan talked about alternative traction for the West Highland, Far North and Kyle lines so that means either batteries or a custom build of Hydrogen powered trains by 2035. (Page 22 onwards).

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/47906/rail-services-decarbonisation-action-plan.pdf

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cascaded Mark 4s with 67s.

That would be nice, but it would knacker the portion working, so you'd have to run separate FW and Oban trains, probably reducing the frequency at each. Also, multiple engines are useful in case of a failure on such a remote line, so DMUs are probably better in that regard too.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Loop lengths on the WHL are very tight and wasting space with locomotives and DVTs is completely bonkers in summer; let alone the portion working point, which is also important.

 

[HST43257]

Some 2 car hydrogen unit would be good.
6 cars every 2 hours leaving glasgow

2 to oban
4 to fort william

on some services (about 4 per day) 2 coaches could go through to mallaig. Even with covid, most daytime mallaig services were full last summer, especially when they were 2 coaches.

 

[grangergranger]

Class 185s when the electrification occurs on the transpennine route??

 

[Bletchleyite]

Class 185s when the electrification occurs on the transpennine route??

I suppose it depends on whether this is a short or long-term replacement. The 156s have just been refurbished (I know it's a bit Marmite) so they have a few years left in them at least. So the question is are we looking at replacing them say in 5 years' time (in which case 158s, 170s, 185s, 175s and the likes might feature), or in say 10-20 years' time (in which case it would be unlikely for whatever is used to burn diesel, but rather some form of Roger Ford's bionic duckweed, e.g. hydrogen).

I think there are two things we can be sure they won't be - battery-only (though we may see battery hybrids to make use of the considerable amount of energy lost through braking on the downhills) or diesel-hauled LHCS.

 

[JonathanH]

Cascaded Mark 4s with 67s.

That would be nice, but it would knacker the portion working, so you'd have to run separate FW and Oban trains, probably reducing the frequency at each. Also, multiple engines are useful in case of a failure on such a remote line, so DMUs are probably better in that regard too.

Horrifically expensive to operate on a line that doesn't make money. The sooner the Mark 4s and 67s are both at the scrapyard the better.

Unless the fares are going to be dramatically increased for non-locals, the rolling stock needs to be cheap and simple to operate.

 

[XAM2175]

Also remembering that the speed limit for quite a lot of the line is lower for non-MU trains.

Realistically any replacement stock for the WHL is going to be a multiple unit - whether that means the 156s are clung to for as long as it takes to procure a custom series of alternate-power units, or they're replaced with cascaded 158s that are used for as long as it takes to piggy-back an order onto a more-established series of alternate-power units.

 

[Sammyh1234]

I believe there’s clearance issues with the 158’s on the line meaning they can’t use them. They did plan on using them but realised they wouldn’t fit due to the line having lots of tight sections.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Also remembering that the speed limit for quite a lot of the line is lower for non-MU trains.

Realistically any replacement stock for the WHL is going to be a multiple unit - whether that means the 156s are clung to for as long as it takes to procure a custom series of alternate-power units, or they're replaced with cascaded 158s that are used for as long as it takes to piggy-back an order onto a more-established series of alternate-power units.

Assuming that the 156's or 158's are replaced with a custom build of self powered units then the Scottish government could look at a joint order with the Welsh government for the Cambrian and Heart of Wales lines which like the West Highland and Far North/Kyle lines are not going to be electrified.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Assuming that the 156's or 158's are replaced with a custom build of self powered units then the Scottish government could look at a joint order with the Welsh government for the Cambrian and Heart of Wales lines which like the West Highland and Far North/Kyle lines are not going to be electrified.

I think that's a decent reason to string out 156/153 use for another say 10 years (which the refurb and the building of the cycle 153s will achieve) as that will give time for all the experimentation to be done to find out which type of Fordian "bionic duckweed" is the one that's going to be best for this sort of route.

 

[peteb]

Your post doesn’t make sense - you say the DMUs from the late 1980s are ageing and need replacing and then you propose replacing them with rolling stock built at least 10 years earlier in the form of the Chiltern Silver sets.

Ageeed mk3 carriages date from the 70s but chilterns silver refurb has given them power doors, usb and electric sockets, nice seats with tables etc so much more comfortable for touristy 3 hour journeys. But also selective door opening means they could be used on short platforms, whilst a DVT could swallow up loads of bikes, bulky baggage etc. We know mk3s will work on the WH line as previous sleepers used them. I'd love to hire a silver train and do a trial run up to Fort William. I wonder if/how that could be achieved or is that for another thread?

Add a few FOs parked at Fort William in the day and you could run dining trains up to Crianlarich in the evening and back. (Or Glasgow to Crianlarich, scenery once past Dumbarton impressive).

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Ageeed mk3 carriages date from the 70s but chilterns silver refurb has given them power doors, usb and electric sockets, nice seats with tables etc so much more comfortable for touristy 3 hour journeys. But also selective door opening means they could be used on short platforms, whilst a DVT could swallow up loads of bikes, bulky baggage etc. We know mk3s will work on the WH line as previous sleepers used them. I'd love to hire a silver train and do a trial run up to Fort William. I wonder if/how that could be achieved or is that for another thread?

Add a few FOs parked at Fort William in the day and you could run dining trains up to Crianlarich in the evening and back. (Or Glasgow to Crianlarich, scenery once past Dumbarton impressive).

Theres no issues with short platforms on the West Highland line really as the platform lengths = loop lengths = maximum formation of train.

yes but you still suggest replacing a 30 or so year old train with a 40 year old train on the basis the 30 year old train is ageing!? If the 156 is ageing mechanically then the mk3 are well beyond that.

 

[Journeyman]

Yeah, can we just forget about loco haulage? It'll never happen. The noise issue of underfloor engines seems to be a perennial favourite with enthusiasts, but honestly, no-one else cares.

As others have said, the 156s plus the new 153s will do for the next few years, until ScotRail come up with something suitable for their remaining non-electrified secondary services. I can see it being something like a bi-mode electric/hydrogen train.

 

[Whistler40145]

Gangway fitted 172s or 176s

 

[computerSaysNo]

Not sure if this idea is too "out there".
If it isn't economical to have a bespoke fleet just for the West Highland and/or Far North & Kyle lines...
... What about having a "franchise"(/business sector/operating company/etc) which specialises in rural services which are used mostly by tourists, such as Heart of Wales, West Highland, Kyle of Lochalsh and Far North lines? Staff/management could be recruited specially from people who have experience in tourism. A common train fleet could be used (e.g. Flirts) with a specialized interior, light maintenance carried out locally on each line and heavy maintenance done centrally (e.g. if the Sleeper were to be included in this operation, a couple of units a night could be carried (out of service) and attached to the rear of the Sleeper and dropped off enroute at e.g. Crewe).
This would have the benefit of a common fleet (so not several micro-fleets scattered across the country) and more focused management on providing services and amenities useful/desirable for tourists.