IEP bandwagon of hate?

[Dave1987]

Luggage requirements have changed over the years, more and more people (following the growth in airlines who charge for his luggage) are using smaller cases for going away for weekends and other short breaks, with more people using large cases opting for road travel.

For those that do continue to use rail travel with large cases (and the above doesn't mean that they don't exist nor that they don't need luggage space) there is provision for them. Could there be more, yes. However I'm not sure that there's as much demand for it as some make out. As with all things there's a balance to be had between seating and other facilities.

I get the impression that some think we should have an average of 50 seats per coach in these new trains so that every other possibility (other than lots of people wishing to travel) is catered for.

Hmmm well I see people travelling day in day out with large luggage. Why do some of you seem to believe the only people who ever travel by train are commuters or people with a small cabin bag?? And yes we come back to the question of whether these are commuter trains or long distance intercity trains. If it the case that provision is not given for people to travel with large luggage then don't be surprised if luggage is left all over the place hampering dwell times.

Overall I'm pretty ambivalent about them. Overall I see that the standard of rail travel is on a slow downhill slope throughout the country. Commuters seem to be the target market for politicians yet they keep on harping on about getting people off the roads, yet keep downgrading comfort levels on trains.

 

[mr_jrt]

I just dislike underfloor diesel engines, which is why I dislike the IEP design. Stick the engines at the end in the driving vehicle and I'd probably have no major problem...or even better, place the diesel generator in a separate, detachable, vehicle powering a conventional high-speed EMU and we'd be golden.

 

[Dhassell]

I just dislike underfloor diesel engines, which is why I dislike the IEP design. Stick the engines at the end in the driving vehicle and I'd probably have no major problem...or even better, place the diesel generator in a separate, detachable, vehicle powering a conventional high-speed EMU and we'd be golden.

The diesel engines on the IET's are not that loud, and don't create much vibration. The IET's are a lot quieter inside than HST's.

 

[jimm]

I'm not surprised to see the usual suspects defending their pet project to the death. Whilst I have not travelled on one (and have no desire to rush out and try one) I have spoken to people who have travelled on them. They are here for the next 27 years no matter what people say wasting vast amounts of energy lugging tonnes and tonnes of engines and fuel under the wires. Besides my personal gripes regarding bi-mode the only things that really matter are noise levels, seat comfort, availability of luggage storage space and journey times. Noise levels I have heard nothing but good reports, fair play to Hitachi there. Seat comfort I have been told they are not suitable for long distance and that a long journey could be pretty uncomfortable after a while, but that is the fault of the DFT. Availability of luggage space is again very poor especially for large luggage, one of the reasons I believe these are commuter trains for the commuter belt and not for long distance leisure journeys. Journey times? Well the less said about that the better. 40 years of progress to just about keep up with the trains they are replacing for an enormous amount of money. 40 years of progress, one should be able to expect a lot more especially considering the enormous cost. I do not blame Hitachi they supplied what was asked, the blame lies firmly with the DFT as usual!

And the usual suspects still trotting out the same negative stuff after so many years... how about actually travelling on one before you treat us to it all yet again?

Are you just upset because so far no one has actually come on here to slaughter the Class 800s after travelling on one?

We've heard all about your personal gripes about bi-modes again and again, but despite repeated requests, you have never actually shared with us your brilliant alternative method of serving places off the electrified core of the GWML or ECML.

Go and look at the luggage lockers before you come out with stuff about there not being space for large luggage - you can get a lot of large suitcases or surfboards into one of those things. And the overhead racks will happily accommodate lots of the airline cabin locker-sized suitcases that so many people travel with these days.

But why would it matter if there's little luggage space anyway, when these these trains are just going to be full of the commuters you seem to think they have been designed to transport?

What exactly it is that 40 years of progress should have brought? Or is this like your alternative to bi-modes? We'll never know...

 

[The Ham]

Hmmm well I see people travelling day in day out with large luggage. Why do some of you seem to believe the only people who ever travel by train are commuters or people with a small cabin bag?? And yes we come back to the question of whether these are commuter trains or long distance intercity trains. If it the case that provision is not given for people to travel with large luggage then don't be surprised if luggage is left all over the place hampering dwell times.

Overall I'm pretty ambivalent about them. Overall I see that the standard of rail travel is on a slow downhill slope throughout the country. Commuters seem to be the target market for politicians yet they keep on harping on about getting people off the roads, yet keep downgrading comfort levels on trains.

I don't doubt that you see people with large cases day in day out (in that I also see such people) and I didn't say that people didn't. I even said that there could be need for more luggage space.

What I was getting at was that to provide the potential maximum luggage space that could be needed if a significant number of people where to need space for large luggage would result in those luggage racks being empty for a significant amount of time whilst forcing people to stand.

Even on trains where luggage racks are provide they are often under used as people are happier keeping their stuff close to them. Often at the expense of people being able to sit down.

 

[43096]

Overall I'm pretty ambivalent about them. Overall I see that the standard of rail travel is on a slow downhill slope throughout the country. Commuters seem to be the target market for politicians yet they keep on harping on about getting people off the roads, yet keep downgrading comfort levels on trains.

Not been on an IEP yet, so can't comment on them against other stock. However, your point about downgrading is a fair one. Since privatisation, I would say new stock has resulted in "Regional Railways" standards staying roughly the same, "Network SouthEast" improving (removal of slam door stock is a big improvement, but see comment below) and "InterCity" standards have dropped significantly (Pendolino and Voyager - XC is basically just a jumper-up Sprinter railway now).

I say NSE has got better - it has with the introduction of trains like the 375s, 458s and the various Desiros. I know there are those who don't like 3+2 seating, but as a like-for-like improvement for VEPs they are a massive improvement. That said, the current fashion for ironing board seats in the 387s, 700s and 707s knocks that back as the dumbing down spreads.

 

[alastair]

Those who have not yet travelled on the new train may find this "trip report" on the inaugral run interesting:

The reviewer mentions the build quality, the large overhead luggage racks and the toilets as being good features of the new train. There are even a few shots of those people that some on here love to hate - Reading commuters!

 

[Domh245]

Found @AlterEgo's alternate account!

 

[Chester1]

I don't doubt that you see people with large cases day in day out (in that I also see such people) and I didn't say that people didn't. I even said that there could be need for more luggage space.

What I was getting at was that to provide the potential maximum luggage space that could be needed if a significant number of people where to need space for large luggage would result in those luggage racks being empty for a significant amount of time whilst forcing people to stand.

Even on trains where luggage racks are provide they are often under used as people are happier keeping their stuff close to them. Often at the expense of people being able to sit down.

I ask people to move their luggage if I can't get a seat. I haven't had anyone say no yet but if it happens I will find the guard! Its not acceptable to pay for one seat and use two while people stand.

Luggage patterns have definately changed a bit and I think its because of budget airlines. Their maximum size dimensions for cabin luggage have provided a useful standard for medium to large backpacks and small cases. People are more likely to own a case or large backpack because its basically a prerequisite of flying on an airline if you want to avoid hold luggage charges. Once people own one they are likely to use it for other journeys. They can be put in the overhead racks near to seats giving them an advantage over larger cases.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Luggage space is another advantage of doors at thirds - if you put a rack by the blank bit by the doors, it's still near most of the seats.

 

[highspeed990]

While Mark 3 coaches are much better than the class 800s, and a lot of the complaints are valid, it's probably the best of all the modern garbage being introduced, but a lot of people hate it just because it is new, as new things have a reputation of being worse than their predecessors.

 

[D365]

While Mark 3 coaches are much better than the class 800s...

Again, personal opinion. Although I suppose that is the basis of this discussion.

 

[6Gman]

The question that I believe has never been truly answered is are these commuter trains or are they long distance intercity trains?

Yes.

In that, on the GW of today, they have of necessity to be both.

 

[6Gman]

Not been on an IEP yet, so can't comment on them against other stock. However, your point about downgrading is a fair one. Since privatisation, I would say new stock has resulted in "Regional Railways" standards staying roughly the same, "Network SouthEast" improving (removal of slam door stock is a big improvement, but see comment below) and "InterCity" standards have dropped significantly (Pendolino and Voyager - XC is basically just a jumper-up Sprinter railway now).

At privatisation I'm pretty sure North Wales was a land of 142s and 150s. It's now 158s and 175s. I'd call that an improvement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At privatisation I'm pretty sure North Wales was a land of 142s and 150s. It's now 158s and 175s. I'd call that an improvement.

No, it was a land of 158s and LHCS. Not really an upgrade or downgrade - but the politically motivated loss of Birmingham services via Crewe and Stafford was a definite downgrade.

 

[Bishopstone]

While Mark 3 coaches are much better than the class 800s, and a lot of the complaints are valid, it's probably the best of all the modern garbage being introduced, but a lot of people hate it just because it is new, as new things have a reputation of being worse than their predecessors.

Although new things are, in fact, very rarely worse than their predecessors. Even on the railway.

 

[highspeed990]

Although new things are, in fact, very rarely worse than their predecessors. Even on the railway.

Technology wise yes, quality wise no. I don't care if I'm on a hover train if the seats are garbage, the buffet has been removed, and the engine is rumbling beneath me.

 

[FGW_DID]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...tting-increasingly-worse.156042/#post-3167203

Yet another thinly veiled 800 bashing thread appears, and still some think there's no 'Bandwagon of Hate'!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No, it was a land of 158s and LHCS. Not really an upgrade or downgrade - but the politically motivated loss of Birmingham services via Crewe and Stafford was a definite downgrade.

You forgot the 101s and Pacers, and the three IC HSTs with the extra-bouncy IC70 seats, Old Oak Common's worst...
Also Arriva took away half of FNW's 175s for Manchester-Cardiff, with 158/150s returning.
I don't know how IC standards can be said to have dropped with significantly faster WC journey times with 390/221.
It's a significantly better service than in 1997.
A pity the e-Voyager never made it.

 

[Chester1]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...tting-increasingly-worse.156042/#post-3167203

Yet another thinly veiled 800 bashing thread appears, and still some think there's no 'Bandwagon of Hate'!

I agree. I think if you started a thread named "Why is music worse than when we were young?" Or "Kids these days have no respect" most of the same people would be posting. It is fairly obvious that the network can no longer cope with demand if it runs loco hauled stock which waste platform space and cause more track wear. From the reports so far it seems that the 800s are much quieter than the average MU and I am sure most passengers would prefer ~220m of carriage than ~200m . TPEs Mark Vs are the result of only needing 5 coaches, Newton Aycliffe running at full capacity until 2020, Bombardier deciding to not submit a bi mode option, a design from the sleepers and a factory in Spain with insufficient work. I have never understood the window seat alignment problem, if people are so keen on window seats they should book in advance and when they can't l put up with it.

 

[Class 466]

I travelled on them from London - Cardiff and back. Seats are far more comfortable and supportive than those on GWR HSTs. Can’t wait for my next trip out now!

 

[Bishopstone]

Technology wise yes, quality wise no. I don't care if I'm on a hover train if the seats are garbage, the buffet has been removed, and the engine is rumbling beneath me.

I've yet to experience the class 800 myself, but the seats seem to be winning praise, particularly for their pitch. The buffet now comes to you, so the infirm and those who don't wish to leave (or lug) valuables have access to refreshments.

I'm bemused when enthusiasts, of all people, moan about engine noise, as so many of them bemoaned the loss of loco-hauled thrash and droplights to flail from. Now, suddenly, trains must be silent. On that score, the Thameslink 700s are quieter than the units they have replaced: so progress there.

 

[delt1c]

Saying as the 105s were replaced with bendy buses that we are still enduring, then yes, I miss the 105s and other 1st gen bog-units, and will do until their replacement is an improvement. Nabbing the ex-1st class armchairs in a 101 trailer made for a very comfortable (if bouncy!) journey; compare and contrast being stuck with an ex Merseyrail 142.

I take it then you did many trips on 105's on the mainline, with deafening engine screaming to get to 70mph, eyes watering with exhaust fumes, window frames and luggage racks rattling to self distruction and holding on to the seat base to try and remain in contact with the seat.freezing your dangly bits of in winter and melting in summer Yes the Pacers have their faults but compared to a 60 min journey on the mainline with a 105 they are bliss.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Thing is though, the interior does look like that if you replaced the seats with the ones on VTEC it would look the same inside.

 

[AM9]

I've yet to experience the class 800 myself, but the seats seem to be winning praise, particularly for their pitch. The buffet now comes to you, so the infirm and those who don't wish to leave (or lug) valuables have access to refreshments.

I'm bemused when enthusiasts, of all people, moan about engine noise, as so many of them bemoaned the loss of loco-hauled thrash and droplights to flail from. Now, suddenly, trains must be silent. On that score, the Thameslink 700s are quieter than the units they have replaced: so progress there.

I agree totlly. Fortunately, the types of views expressed in threads like this seem to be nowhere representative of the general farepaying public so there's little chance of them deviating from the current path of greater capacity, safety (for passengers, staff and those near the railway) and in posture terms, health for the majority of the british population's physique.
Those who wish can wallow in their warm fug of nostalgia but the rest of the population moves on.

 

[43096]

Those who wish can wallow in their warm fug of nostalgia but the rest of the population moves on.

And those who want to believe that it must be better because it is new can sit in their own naïve little world.

 

[Bletchleyite]

if people are so keen on window seats they should book in advance

Only a few TOCs offer a seat selector, and I'm not sure any of those show window layout.

If it was done properly I'd pay extra for that.

 

[D365]

And those who want to believe that it must be better because it is new can sit in their own naïve little world.

What a self-fulfilling discussion this is...

 

[43096]

What a self-fulfilling discussion this is...

More than one view is allowed, y'know!

As I have said I haven't yet used an IEP so will reserve judgement until I do. But if you think I am completely new = worse, then you'd be wrong: I've always said the various Desiros, Electrostars and Junipers are a big improvement on the CEPs, CIGs and VEPs.

 

[AM9]

And those who want to believe that it must be better because it is new can sit in their own naïve little world.

Well not on their own, unless you give up rail travel, you will too as time goes on because it isn't going to go back to the way it was. The 700s, 800s, all the GA new stock, the WM new stock etc., will all follow the same 21st century safety and capacity standards. Like it or not, everbody will have to get used to it. Posting comments here, whilst it might be interesting when conducted as an adult conversation, to those who have any influence on the real world, perpetual unqualified rants are:
a) ignored by those with the power and authority to change anything, - even official passenger forums rarely have much of an affect on anything that costs real money to fix let alone bizarre claims like the need for seats lining up with windows
b) like grizzly children, soon ingnored and treated as irritating backgroung noise.