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IEP - Contract Awarded for 596 Cars

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tbtc

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Everyone keeps saying that 700s are going to be replacing most/all of the stock on GN, but do we actually having anything official that suggests that this will be the case? I'm not doubting people, I'm just honestly curious as I'd like to know what the official line is.

This is what bugs me - too many assumptions are being touted as "fact" - some people suggest that there will remain a decent number of peak GN services from Kings Cross (Main Line station) which would require a fair number of units (twelve car formation etc)

Mk 4,s to Cambridge a non starter overpriding of stock to passengers plus not suited to what is essential a surburban sevice.If new stock is required a Desiro is the best for the job.

I'm really not sure what would be best for the "fast" Cambridge services. Something that can do portion working for Kings Lynn, something fairly high density (because of the complaints about running more "spacious" trains) but not crammed in like sardines... is it big enough for its own microfleet though?
 
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5-car 23m sets, similar to the 444s, would probably be best - especially if they could do 110mph like the 350s. The amount of wasted space on LDHS stock like the IEPs would make no sense on the KLN services, especially as there's almost nowhere to run over 110mph anywhere (mostly 115 south of Hitchin, IIRC).

Is it big enough for its own microfleet though?
Probably not on its own, I can't see it needing more than 15-20 units. Perhaps it should share a pool with the Liverpool St-Norwich services, which have similar requirements and need something with better acceleration than the 90s? That would give a total fleet of about 40 units.
 

D365

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8tph is not enough for GN suburbans! Even more to the point, why would a micro-fleet situation be necessary? Refurbished 365s or new 377s would do us just fine.
 

RobShipway

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There are about 26 new Electrostars being built for Southern at the moment that will start to appear within the next 12 months, so depending on what the merged Southern/Thameslink fleet will be even after the Class 700 will be delivered I suspect that there would be either the 15 377/2 or the 23 377/5 trains available to possibly replace the 365's.

With regards to the 365's I see them, possibly joining the 465's on South Eastern as an option or both the 365 & 465 fleets moving up to the north with some of the class 377 fleet mentioned above replacing the 465's possibly.
 

HSTEd

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8tph is not enough for GN suburbans! Even more to the point, why would a micro-fleet situation be necessary? Refurbished 365s or new 377s would do us just fine.

Its 8tph from the Thameslink core and up to 6tph from Moorgate.

14tph peak sounds easily sufficient to me. (This is excluding the Cambridge Superfasts)

Stevenage would get both the Cambridge and Peterborough trains, giving it 4tph and Peterborough has access to a large number of ICEC trains making two trains per hour probably sufficient.

4tph on the Inner suburban trains is almost turn-up-and-ride frequency, and this excludes anything from Moorgate which could feed another three trains into the mix.

You could easily reduce it to 2tph Inner Suburban through Thameslink and make up with the Moorgate services, leaving those extra two to bring Peterborough up to 4tph and 6tph to Stevenage.
 

D365

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Sounds more like it, don't forget about the good Huntingdon/St. Neots folk et al ;)
 
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LE Greys

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Its 8tph from the Thameslink core and up to 6tph from Moorgate.

14tph peak sounds easily sufficient to me. (This is excluding the Cambridge Superfasts)

Stevenage would get both the Cambridge and Peterborough trains, giving it 4tph and Peterborough has access to a large number of ICEC trains making two trains per hour probably sufficient.

4tph on the Inner suburban trains is almost turn-up-and-ride frequency, and this excludes anything from Moorgate which could feed another three trains into the mix.

You could easily reduce it to 2tph Inner Suburban through Thameslink and make up with the Moorgate services, leaving those extra two to bring Peterborough up to 4tph and 6tph to Stevenage.

Is 8tph peak or off-peak frequency? I reckon that off-peak is probably going to be the same as now, giving a bit of flexibility in the timetable to sort out delays. During the peak, it's simply impossible to ram anything more through Welwyn, but the xx:14 and xx:44 peak extras would most likely go to Thameslink, which pushes it up to 6tph. Additional peak extras might push it up to 8tph, but that would depend on capacity between Wood Green and Welwyn. Can WGC handle 4tph terminating? Otherwise, it's a choice between absorbing the Beer Train or transferring it to Liverpool Street to free up paths.

Of course, there's also the question of where the trains go south of Blackfriars. I'd say one each to Brighton from Cambridge and Peterborough, the rest going wherever convenient. Still, we'll know in six years, I suppose.

As for using IEP on this, I know that Baker wants to do so, since he assumes that there will be sufficient acceleration to cope with the stops on the Fen Line. The thing is supposed to be able to out-drag a Pendy, 0-100 in less than 100 seconds.
 

Skimble19

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Sounds more like it, don't forget about the good Huntingdon/St. Neots folk et al ;)

Speaking of which, I wonder what'll happen with all the fast services that stop at places such as Bigleswade.. E.g. The 16:40, 17:40 etc. from KGX that are first stop Biggleswade.
 

LE Greys

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Speaking of which, I wonder what'll happen with all the fast services that stop at places such as Bigleswade.. E.g. The 16:40, 17:40 etc. from KGX that are first stop Biggleswade.

I expect they'll continue to run from King's Cross, with the possibility of extending to Lincoln with ED IEPs, although the Biggleswade stop might go (hopefully exchanged for more Stevenage stops as crowd-busters).
 

Skimble19

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Going to have to disagree with you on that one - a large proportion of the people on there get off at Biggleswade (and plenty get on the direct services in the morning!), which is otherwise only served 2x an hour, compared to who knows how many services Stevenage gets an hour - I honestly think the extra direct service an hour makes far more difference at Biggleswade than it would at Stevenage.

On a personal note, I always enjoy the evening service that only takes 27 minutes to do the trip - not having to stop at Stevenage etc. is rather enjoyable :lol:
 

HSTEd

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With the possible exceptions of off-peak Cambridge "cruisers" I don't think there is any real reason why the Suburban platforms at King's Cross would see significant use by suburban trains again.
8tph 160m/200m trains and 6 120m trains should easily handle all the GN suburban requirements.
(8tph Thameslink split to 4tph Peterborough, 2tph WGC, 2tph Cambridge and the Moorgate trains split as 2/3tph WGC and 3tph Hertford Loop)

Indeed I would think that Hull Trains and Grand Central would jump at the chance to have a "terminal" all their own.
 

D365

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Going to have to disagree with you on that one - a large proportion of the people on there get off at Biggleswade (and plenty get on the direct services in the morning!), which is otherwise only served 2x an hour, compared to who knows how many services Stevenage gets an hour - I honestly think the extra direct service an hour makes far more difference at Biggleswade than it would at Stevenage.

On a personal note, I always enjoy the evening service that only takes 27 minutes to do the trip - not having to stop at Stevenage etc. is rather enjoyable :lol:

My dad is one of these regulars, he gets to London from Huntingdon and is always complaining when FCC add extra stops to the "fasts"! Taking 2tph from the Thameslink-WGC inners would be a great idea, as they could be replaced with further Moorgate services.

But anyway, if from 2018 only 2tph from Peterborough is diverted through Thameslink, what will the other 2 (better make it 3!) tph be made up of? I guess it's down to the "Greater Thameslink" and East Coast franchisees to negotiate this with DfT.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Indeed I would think that Hull Trains and Grand Central would jump at the chance to have a "terminal" all their own.

I like the idea! Moorgate branch doesn't currently operate at night and weekends, which is when inner suburban services are diverted to KGX suburban platforms. That could change though.
 
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IanXC

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Moorgate branch doesn't currently operate at night and weekends, but that could change. I like the idea!

I read that as a reference to the Suburban platforms at Kings Cross rather than Moorgate. There would be clearance issues with the tunnels and the use of diesel stock anyway.
 

LE Greys

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Going to have to disagree with you on that one - a large proportion of the people on there get off at Biggleswade (and plenty get on the direct services in the morning!), which is otherwise only served 2x an hour, compared to who knows how many services Stevenage gets an hour - I honestly think the extra direct service an hour makes far more difference at Biggleswade than it would at Stevenage.

On a personal note, I always enjoy the evening service that only takes 27 minutes to do the trip - not having to stop at Stevenage etc. is rather enjoyable :lol:

Most of North Herts would agree with you there. ;)
 

Minstral25

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There are about 26 new Electrostars being built for Southern at the moment that will start to appear within the next 12 months, so depending on what the merged Southern/Thameslink fleet will be even after the Class 700 will be delivered I suspect that there would be either the 15 377/2 or the 23 377/5 trains available to possibly replace the 365's.

With regards to the 365's I see them, possibly joining the 465's on South Eastern as an option or both the 365 & 465 fleets moving up to the north with some of the class 377 fleet mentioned above replacing the 465's possibly.

Can't see any of those 377's leaving the franchise unless they are building extra Class 700's. The 377/5 will strengthen the Milton Keynes trains (currently 377/2's) where the need and plan is to increase frequency and make all trains 8 coaches. The 377/6's in 2013 are already mostly for service strengthening not replacing units (456's to SWT excepting).

There won't be many 377's released by the new Thameslink services (estimated on the service pattern from the East Mids website) - only directly replaced trains from current Southern Services are the half hourly Horsham services and half hourly Caterham fast services (currently mostly 455's).

There is also the question of the long term future of the 313's, 442's and 455's of which the 442's are unsuited to their services and the 313/455's which will be around 40 years old when the 700's enter service.
 

D365

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I heard from a few people that the 377/6 build has been specified with pantos and shoegear as new; don't quote me on it though. Others are assuming that Bombardier won't build any more Electrostars. Give them a large order [to replace all older units, with 378s for Moorgate and Merseyrail possibly] and they'll do it, I'm sure.
 

HSTEd

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If the 317 retraction project is a success, I am pretty sure it could be extended to all PEP and Mark 3 derived units, so then its structural and DDA issues that limitt he life of those units.

And 442s could probably be found some work somewhere
 

WatcherZero

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I heard from a few people that the 377/6 build has been specified with pantos and shoegear as new; don't quote me on it though. Others are assuming that Bombardier won't build any more Electrostars. Give them a large order [to replace all older units, with 378s for Moorgate and Merseyrail possibly] and they'll do it, I'm sure.

In 2007 Scotrail reportedly wanted Bombardier to quote them for class 375/377 Electrostars but Bombardier said that model was no longer on offer and they could only buy class 379 Electrostar 2's so Scotrail then went with Siemens 450 offer (order became class 380) who were much more flexible and offered 23m coaches.
 

LE Greys

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If the 317 retraction project is a success, I am pretty sure it could be extended to all PEP and Mark 3 derived units, so then its structural and DDA issues that limitt he life of those units.

And 442s could probably be found some work somewhere

Waterloo-Weymouth springs to mind...
 

jopsuk

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Waterloo-Weymouth with the 442s, and more frequent/all ten car 444s for Portsmouth both ways?
 

tbtc

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How would the two dozen 442s cope with the numbers required for the Weymouth service (with portions detached/attached at Bournemouth)?
 

The Ham

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Waterloo-Weymouth with the 442s, and more frequent/all ten car 444s for Portsmouth both ways?

Sorry to suggest this, but you might need to switch 442's to Portsmouth and 444's to Weymouth, unless 442's are able to run off the proposed overhead cables between Basingstoke and Southampton as announced under the HLOS.
 

HSTEd

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Waterloo-Weymouth springs to mind...

You have a Mark 3 PTSO that can be spliced into the 442s to give them the dual voltage capability that will soon be required for waterloo-weymouth?
 

LE Greys

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You have a Mark 3 PTSO that can be spliced into the 442s to give them the dual voltage capability that will soon be required for waterloo-weymouth?

:oops: Yes, I forgot that. Maybe we'll have to go with The Ham's idea.
 

455driver

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Waterloo-Weymouth with the 442s, and more frequent/all ten car 444s for Portsmouth both ways?

Nowhere near enough seats, the only way SWT could provide enough seats (as stipulated by DaFT) was to use 12 coach 450 formations.

Running more 444 services to make up for the lack of seating is not feasable due to lack of paths from Waterloo to Woking.
 
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