IEP - possible Great Northern follow on

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jopsuk

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There's a story in the Cambridge News (no need for a link- there's nothing new in it!) again about the possibility of the fast Peterborough/Cambridge/Kings Lynn services eventually being operated by 5-car IEP trains, as mentioned in the DfT press release last week.

There's some bits I've been wondering about though:

Length- a two unit formation will be 20m longer than a 12-car 365 formation. Platforms 1, 7 and 8 at Cambridge don't appear to have 20m of extra length available, though 7 and 8 could be extended easily- 1 can't! 4 is currently only 10-car (for 20m stock) but could possibly be extended- I'm not sure how far. So, um, that'll cause a problem?

Capacity- anyone know of any indicative seating capacity for 5-car "commuter" IEP trains? 12 car peak services from Cambridge have people standing. 8-car off-peak services, especially at weekends, can be rammed. Would there be a redction in seating capaciy, and would most off-peak services have to be double units to avoid the overcrowding that would be almost certain on a single unit- with the restrictions on what platforms they can then use as result?
 
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swt_passenger

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Capacity- anyone know of any indicative seating capacity for 5-car "commuter" IEP trains? 12 car peak services from Cambridge have people standing. 8-car off-peak services, especially at weekends, can be rammed. Would there be a redction in seating capaciy, and would most off-peak services have to be double units to avoid the overcrowding that would be almost certain on a single unit- with the restrictions on what platforms they can then use as result?

Roger Ford also mentioned this very issue a while back.

He reckoned that yes, a 5+5 commuter spec IEP (with 350 seats each) would definitely have less overall capacity than the present 12 car 365s.
 

Zoe

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Will these commuter IEP trains have doors at the 1/3 and 2/3 positions rather than at the end of the coaches?
 

WatcherZero

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Your forgeting the Dft spec is only the basic contract provision, Great Western bidders along with other bidders have 3 months after submitting franchise bids to negotiate with Agility to alter the spec they lease before its locked down for manufacture. for example they could ask for strengthened 6 car electric commuters or 11 car sets as well as altering seating/catering/toilet layouts.
 

swt_passenger

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Will these commuter IEP trains have doors at the 1/3 and 2/3 positions rather than at the end of the coaches?

I'd be surprised, because if that's what was really wanted they could just use 395s.
 

Zoe

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Your forgeting the Dft spec is only the basic contract provision, Great Western bidders along with other bidders have 3 months after submitting franchise bids to negotiate with Agility to alter the spec they lease before its locked down for manufacture. for example they could ask for strengthened 6 car electric commuters or 11 car sets as well as altering seating/catering/toilet layouts.
Could they go as far as changing the position of the doors though?
 

jopsuk

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Your forgeting the Dft spec is only the basic contract provision, Great Western bidders along with other bidders have 3 months after submitting franchise bids to negotiate with Agility to alter the spec they lease before its locked down for manufacture. for example they could ask for strengthened 6 car electric commuters or 11 car sets as well as altering seating/catering/toilet layouts.

with 26m carriages, a 6 car unit would be 156 m long- a double would be 312.
 

jopsuk

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Can any of the platforms at Kings Cross take a 312m long train? there's space aplenty to extend platform 7/8 at Cambridge, but platform 1 and 4 would have to be used if northbound services were still to use that side (to avoid crossing over too much). Especially a problem given that Cambridge Thameslink services will probably be 12 carriage.

Then there's all the stations to Kings Lynn- several of these at the moment are four-carriage and no-more.
 

WatcherZero

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At which point you could almost run a 16 car EMU, and do the calculation in the original question over again...

Which is the fundamental issue, the higher density seating in the 365 as it has less space for storage, wheelchairs and disabled toilets which it would have to be refitted with in the future anyway, the 365's also have the added cost of no corridor connections between the three sets that make up the formation.

Put it this way, when ordering a plane does anyone order planes with the manufacturers stock nice roomy seats and lounge bars or do they cram as much economy seating in as they can?
 

kjhskj75

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Can any of the platforms at Kings Cross take a 312m long train?

No. There are some that could cope with 11x26, but not 12. And extending platforms would be difficult, what with the Gasworks tunnel.
 

swt_passenger

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Which is the fundamental issue, the higher density seating in the 365 as it has less space for storage, wheelchairs and disabled toilets which it would have to be refitted with in the future anyway, the 365's also have the added cost of no corridor connections between the three sets that make up the formation.

Put it this way, when ordering a plane does anyone order planes with the manufacturers stock nice roomy seats and lounge bars or do they cram as much economy seating in as they can?

I can't disagree with any of that, but my original aim was only to answer the question jopsuk posed...
 

route:oxford

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At which point you could almost run a 16 car EMU, and do the calculation in the original question over again...

Surely in due course, if the infrastructure can handle a 26m IEP unit, then a manufacturer will suggest a 26M long EMU for commuting?

A 9-Car EMU with 26M Coaches is going to be about the same length as a standard 12 car EMU but with (ok, this bit is debateable) 25% fewer bits to go wrong.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Would there be value in a corporate undertaking a speculative purchase of, say, 5 10-Car IEP sets for spot-leasing?
 

WatcherZero

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Probably not as Agility are not selling the trains their leasing them, they are in effect their own ROSCO. The leasing for East Coast and Great Western will also be seperate subsidaries interestingly. Keeps the accounting seperate and insulates the parent company which is the builder.
 

WestCountry

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The GW is getting quite a few 9-car, electric IEP sets, isn't it?
Unlike a 5+5 formation, these would be slightly shorter than 12 class 365 carriages, and so would fit on platforms at Cambridge and elsewhere without further extensions.
Because of the space saved by no intermediate cabs/crumple zones, they would probably have about the same number of seats as two 5-car sets too.
Could they not order a small fleet of these for the fast Cambridge/Lynn services? The main disadvantage would be an inability to split at Cambridge off-peak, I suppose - how much of a problem would that be?
 

Bald Rick

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The new platforms at Cambridge were designed for 260m IEP.

However the chances of the new TSGN franchise bidders electing to operate said trains is as close to absolute zero as is possible without hell freezing over.
 

tbtc

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Surely in due course, if the infrastructure can handle a 26m IEP unit, then a manufacturer will suggest a 26M long EMU for commuting?

A 9-Car EMU with 26M Coaches is going to be about the same length as a standard 12 car EMU but with (ok, this bit is debateable) 25% fewer bits to go wrong

This is an interesting question - once 26m becomes the "standard" on the ECML/ GWML, how long before short/middle distance trains go for 26m too?

As well as having fewer bits to go wrong, there's also the bonus that 9x26 has more space in each coach for seating (since the extra three/six meters can be devoted fully to seating).
 

philjo

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The GW is getting quite a few 9-car, electric IEP sets, isn't it?
Unlike a 5+5 formation, these would be slightly shorter than 12 class 365 carriages, and so would fit on platforms at Cambridge and elsewhere without further extensions.
Because of the space saved by no intermediate cabs/crumple zones, they would probably have about the same number of seats as two 5-car sets too.
Could they not order a small fleet of these for the fast Cambridge/Lynn services? The main disadvantage would be an inability to split at Cambridge off-peak, I suppose - how much of a problem would that be?

The main issue would be power consumption. Currently the power supply north of Cambridge is limited so the service is usually restricted to 4 coaches. I think use of 8 coaches is permitted but nothing can operate in the other direction at the same time on that section. So a major power supply upgrade would be needed as well as platform lengthening - some stations only have 4 coach platforms at the moment. Many of these also have relatively low usage e.g. Waterbeach where cost of extending probably can't be justified.
 

jopsuk

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Many of these also have relatively low usage e.g. Waterbeach where cost of extending probably can't be justified.

If they build the massive development at the army base there then half hourly eight car trains would be justified!
 

Skimble19

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The new platforms at Cambridge were designed for 260m IEP.

However the chances of the new TSGN franchise bidders electing to operate said trains is as close to absolute zero as is possible without hell freezing over.
Indeed. I bet it'd cost a lot more to lease IEP as well compared to just keeping refurbished 365s on..
 

sprinterguy

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This is an interesting question - once 26m becomes the "standard" on the ECML/ GWML, how long before short/middle distance trains go for 26m too?

As well as having fewer bits to go wrong, there's also the bonus that 9x26 has more space in each coach for seating (since the extra three/six meters can be devoted fully to seating).
23 metres is presently the standard for long distance stock, but 20 metres has remained the norm for commuter and suburban rolling stock. An interesting trend has however begun to emerge where the latest generation of suburban units, such as the 172s and 380s, utilise 23 metre carriages presumably in order to lessen the impact of the need to accommodate additional or enlarged facilities within the passenger saloon such as DDA compliant toilets.

In such instances though, the capacity per carriage has remained largely similar to the 20 metre stock they have replaced, whereas introducing longer rolling stock with a greater capacity per carriage on high frequency and/or regular stop suburban services would lead to its’ own problems of increasing station dwell times. Plus, across London and South East, platform extension works are being optimised to accommodate 12 x 20 metre carriages: The most that could be accommodated in a 240 metre platform would be a ten carriage formation of 23 metre stock, a loss of ten metres of train length. Whether the reduced number of cabs (Presuming 5-car 23 metre units against 4-car 20 metre ones), doors and vestibule areas would make up for this shortfall is debateable.

With 26 metre stock, the increase in unloading times would be even more pronounced, and raises its own problems with 240 metre platform lengths, as unless you build 9-car units (Which would undoubtedly run around carrying a lot of fresh air out of the peaks), then you need to be able to marry up a 4-car and a 5-car unit in order to maximise the train length, causing complications of rostering when compared to having one large fleet of 4-car units.
 

jopsuk

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All the post-privitisation diesel commuter/suburban/regional stock is 23m (168/170/171, 175, 185, 172). For diesel, it isn't a new thing- but the 23m 380s is.
 

jopsuk

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Parking in place where? The point is that if/when the Waterbeach barracks project goes ahead, there will thousands more Cambridge and london commuters living within walking and cycling distance of Waterbeach station- an hourly four car unit isn't going to cut it, the A10 and parking at Chesterton station won't cope and there should be less car parking at Cambridge station, not more.

Unless you mean more parking at Waterbeach to encourage people from surrounding (non-bike distance) villages to use it and thus increase demand?
 

Nym

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Parking in place where? The point is that if/when the Waterbeach barracks project goes ahead, there will thousands more Cambridge and london commuters living within walking and cycling distance of Waterbeach station- an hourly four car unit isn't going to cut it, the A10 and parking at Chesterton station won't cope and there should be less car parking at Cambridge station, not more.

Unless you mean more parking at Waterbeach to encourage people from surrounding (non-bike distance) villages to use it and thus increase demand?

Yes, I do mean more parking at Waterbeach for people from the likes of Histon etc. to use, since they didn't bother putting a proper railway line back in.
 

jopsuk

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True, but the Chesterton station will at least have a direct guided bus/cycle path route from Histon to it (straight across Milton Road at the lights) so there's no need for people from there to drive to a station once that's done.
 
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