IETs (not) banned through Dawlish during rough seas

Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
18,496
Location
Nottingham
The Class 700 supply frequency problem is one that appears to have been fixed in software. The software was being over-cautious in shutting the train down when the frequency went too low, and not allowing the driver to re-start, and this has now been (or is being) changed. It remains to be seen whether the software is similarly being over-cautious in shutting down GUs in the conditions seen at Dawlish, or whether there is a genuine risk of damage to the engines if allowed to keep running in those conditions.
 
Joined
29 Nov 2016
Messages
290
Explain to me why it wouldn't?

If the engine management software is shutting GUs in certain scenarios, the software can be changed to change the scenario in which the engines are shut down.
The software could be changed, but not without sorting out the consequences of the engines not shutting down.

It would be possible to make a train that was wave proof, but at what cost, for a few hundred yards of track. The reports from the crews were that the trains had been hit by waves, which as has been mentioned further up the thread, is different to spray from waves hitting the rocks or wall.

There must be a point, that no matter what traction you send along there, it becomes unsafe, being hit by waves, cannot be far from that point.
 

northernbelle

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2018
Messages
292
The software could be changed, but not without sorting out the consequences of the engines not shutting down.

It would be possible to make a train that was wave proof, but at what cost, for a few hundred yards of track. The reports from the crews were that the trains had been hit by waves, which as has been mentioned further up the thread, is different to spray from waves hitting the rocks or wall.

There must be a point, that no matter what traction you send along there, it becomes unsafe, being hit by waves, cannot be far from that point.
It depends whether the software can be 'relaxed' with no major effects on the traction equipment - it all depends on the outcome of the investigations that will determine whether the software was 'right' to shut the engines down or not.

You're right about the safety - you can make the traction as 'wave proof' as you like, but risking ballast washouts and flying debris is indeed another matter. The real solution here is actually making the route more resilient and/or providing an alternative.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
48,249
Location
Yorkshire

GrimShady

On Moderation
Joined
13 Dec 2016
Messages
1,740
Explain to me why it wouldn't?

If the engine management software is shutting GUs in certain scenarios, the software can be changed to change the scenario in which the engines are shut down.
I would imagine it's the question of air quality at the intakes which is causing the engine to shutdown. A software update can't change the air quality intakes which is there to stop water getting into the engine.

Surely the way round this is to have the engines connected to a clean compressed air supply then switch over to standard atmospheric intakes?
 

northernbelle

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2018
Messages
292
I would imagine it's the question of air quality at the intakes which is causing the engine to shutdown. A software update can't change the air quality intakes which is there to stop water getting into the engine.

Surely the way round this is to have the engines connected to a clean compressed air supply then switch over to standard atmospheric intakes?
I've heard no suggestion that the air intakes are the problem.
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
5,719
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
As you seem to know better than the industry folk on here, go on, tell us what the real problem is...?
Unfortunately I'm not at a liberty to discuss the fix yet as this is still being worked out. Software will be updated, but this only address one part of the problem. A more unforeseen issue needs fixing first (and it isn't the weather!). However it's close to a problem we've seen before on similar unit.
 

northernbelle

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2018
Messages
292
Unfortunately I'm not at a liberty to discuss the fix yet as this is still being worked out. Software will be updated, but this only address one part of the problem. A more unforeseen issue needs fixing first (and it isn't the weather!). However it's close to a problem we've seen before on similar unit.
You mean you don't actually know as it's no more than rumour?
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
48,249
Location
Yorkshire
You mean you don't actually know as it's no more than rumour?
There are several members of this forum who post updates relating to matters that they are working on in a professional capacity who may not be able to disclose the full information for confidentiality reasons.

That doesn't necessarily mean that such people are stating nothing more than a rumour.
 

northernbelle

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2018
Messages
292
There are several members of this forum who post updates relating to matters that they are working on in a professional capacity who may not be able to disclose the full information for confidentiality reasons.

That doesn't necessarily mean that such people are stating nothing more than a rumour.
The people who are closest to and actually work with this issue have been quite open about what's going on. Some other posters have a reputation for parroting rumour and third hand gossip - just trying to sift one from the other!
 
Joined
29 Nov 2016
Messages
290
Care to enlighten me then why diesels are shutting down when being exposed to heavy wave spray?
I’m afraid not, but rest assured, it’s nothing to do with air intakes. They cope with spray, they have suffered when they are actually hit by waves, two different things.
 

fgwrich

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
5,719
Location
Between Edinburgh and Exeter
Further issues with the so called "Dawlish Proof" 802 Fleet today with two failures:

802001 working the 1A82 09:15 Penzance to Padd Failed at Starcross.

802013 working the 1C75 Padd to Paignton Failed at Dawlish.

Certainly the issue with 001 being declared a failure at Starcross has already hit the news, with the @live outlets reporting the following. Still waiting for that so called Software modifications then.

Passengers stranded in 'blacked out' train near Dawlish sea wall
One passenger claims he was stuck on the unmoving train for over two hours By Molly Dowrick


The packed train from Exeter Central to Dawlish on Tuesday evening (Image: Tania Roberts)
Sign up to FREE daily email alerts from Plymouthherald - Daily
We will use your email address only for sending you newsletters. Please see ourPrivacy Noticefor details of your data protection rights
Passengers say they were stuck on an unmoving train for over two hours, after sea water entered the engine and the train broke down, it has been claimed.

Plymouth Live has received reports that passengers were stranded on a train near Dawlish after it left Plymouth at 11.16am this morning (Thursday).

p:nth-of-type(2)","sizes":[[8,8]],"hideOnSensitiveArticle":true,"relativePos":"after","additionalClass":"in-article","name":"div-gpt-ad-vip-slot","type":"VIP"}" data-gpt-placeholder="" data-response-start="4201.000000000001" data-type="gpt" data-requested="7863" data-google-query-id="CN-V9MOwwuYCFU2hewodB5kH7g" data-timer-slot-rendered="9521" data-rendered-width="8" data-rendered-height="8" data-response-end="9859" style="background-color: transparent; border: 0px; outline: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; overflow: hidden; z-index: 1; height: 8px; max-height: 8px;">
One man claims he was told the train had broken down "following sea water entering the engine at Dawlish" and was stuck on the train for over two hours.

Great Western Railway (GWR) has confirmed that the train was delayed "due to a train fault" and the matter is being investigated.

One train passenger told Plymouth Live the service was declared a "failure" by the train driver and said he was stranded at Starcross station, eight miles from Exeter, as his train was "over two hours late [delayed]."

He also said the train was "blacked out to conserve battery power" on the broken down train shortly before 1pm.


All trains to Dawlish suspended as flooding chaos continue


The incident comes after all trains to Dawlish were "suspended" because of the weather.

Earlier today, CrossCountry trains informed passengers there would be a reduced service, with some trains terminating at Exeter.

Then, heavy rain and high waves along the sea wall forced Great Western Railway and CrossCountry to suspend trains through the town.

A spokesperson for Great Western Railway said: "Unfortunately, the 0915 Penzance to Paddington service was delayed by just over two hours due to a train fault.



A still from a video showing a train driver's view of the waves at Dawlish last year (Image: GWR)
"The train was taken forward to Exeter St Davids where it terminated, and customers boarded another service which we had waiting on the opposite platform. Those on board are entitled to a refund and we would urge them to get in touch. We are very sorry for the delay to this train."

It's understood Great Western Railway are investigating the fault.

Network Rail 'closely' monitoring rail network in midst of bad weather
Network Rail says it is monitoring train tracks in the area 'closely' as stormy conditions continue to lashthe South West.

All trains to Dawlish have already been suspended due to the bad weather.

Almost seven years ago to the day, train lines around Cowley Bridge also became flooded after the River Exe burst its banks.

After being contacted by Devon Live, Network Rail confirmed they were keeping a close eye on the situation, with the bad weather set to persist well into the weekend.

A Network Rail spokesperson said: "The service in Devon is currently running well despite the weather conditions.

"We will continue to monitor the situation closely. As always, we advise passengers to check before travelling to find out up-to-date journey information.”
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/l...sIlKKL_O37-N8fOd2WxNnxkyjAV6HJ5gMjV2abtlM7SYU
 

hexagon789

Established Member
Joined
2 Sep 2016
Messages
8,970
Location
Glasgow
Further issues with the so called "Dawlish Proof" 802 Fleet today with two failures:

802001 working the 1A82 09:15 Penzance to Padd Failed at Starcross.

802013 working the 1C75 Padd to Paignton Failed at Dawlish.

Certainly the issue with 001 being declared a failure at Starcross has already hit the news, with the @live outlets reporting the following. Still waiting for that so called Software modifications then.
So much for Dawlish-proof :rolleyes:
 

Mitchell Hurd

Member
Joined
28 Oct 2017
Messages
1,062
If I'm honest, 2 hours late considering an IET failed isn't that bad - sorry I know people might say otherwise but I thought it was more like 5 hours til I read the article.

How did the IET make it to Exeter? Or did one of GWR's 57's come to the rescue and pull it in?
 

virgintrain1

Member
Joined
29 Jul 2011
Messages
127
If I'm honest, 2 hours late considering an IET failed isn't that bad - sorry I know people might say otherwise but I thought it was more like 5 hours til I read the article.

How did the IET make it to Exeter? Or did one of GWR's 57's come to the rescue and pull it in?
An IETx2 at Exeter split to become a 1Z99 train.
 

northernbelle

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2018
Messages
292
Further issues with the so called "Dawlish Proof" 802 Fleet today with two failures:

802001 working the 1A82 09:15 Penzance to Padd Failed at Starcross.

802013 working the 1C75 Padd to Paignton Failed at Dawlish.

Certainly the issue with 001 being declared a failure at Starcross has already hit the news, with the @live outlets reporting the following. Still waiting for that so called Software modifications then.
Indeed we are still waiting. First set expected to have been updated for testing in January.
 

northernbelle

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2018
Messages
292
Surely they're designed to cope with salt water, but not extreme weather?
Quite. There were some tests undertaken which involved salt water being powered through the Cl802 brake resistors but it's impossible to replicate the full Dawlish scenario without actually being there.
 

irish_rail

Established Member
Joined
30 Oct 2013
Messages
1,415
Location
Plymouth
There were lots of 5 vice 9or 10s today. I'd say a 5 car is more vulnerable to losing all engines compared with a 9 or a 10 car. Sadly GWR seem content to provide multiple short forms on the Penzance to London route. As predicted......
 

Top