IF electrification extended to Middlesbrough...?

[themiller]

I realise that this is probably "pie-in-the-sky" but if the line to Middlesbrough were to be electrified for TPE (or its replacement), leaving aside bureaucracy, would it be possible for GBRf to run their ex-Norwegian NSB Ni8s to and from Tees Yard as a changeover point with electric traction? I'm not up to date with the area but it seems like an opportunity to increase freight haulage on the back of a passenger enhancement.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think gauge clearance would be the main obstacle, though I don't think it would insurmountable as there aren't all that many bridges and other bits of infrastructure that might cause problems. However, you might struggle to make the business case for the work to be done as lifting bridges and other such work isn't particularly cheap.

As for pie in the sky I'm still quietly optimistic that Middlesbrough will get wires in CP6

 

[DarloRich]

I realise that this is probably "pie-in-the-sky" but if the line to Middlesbrough were to be electrified for TPE (or its replacement), leaving aside bureaucracy, would it be possible for GBRf to run their ex-Norwegian NSB Ni8s to and from Tees Yard as a changeover point with electric traction? I'm not up to date with the area but it seems like an opportunity to increase freight haulage on the back of a passenger enhancement.

Do they have product acceptance in the UK?

 

[Stats]

I see no case for electrification to Middlesbrough purely for the basis of TPE. The only possibility I see of electrification to Middlesbrough (or more precisely Teesport) is if it is to be part of a National Freight Electrification scheme. So I think you have it the wrong way round. It's more likely to bring passenger service benefits on the back of a freight enhancement.

 

[tbtc]

I see no case for electrification to Middlesbrough purely for the basis of TPE. The only possibility I see of electrification to Middlesbrough (or more precisely Teesport) is if it is to be part of a National Freight Electrification scheme. So I think you have it the wrong way round. It's more likely to bring passenger service benefits on the back of a freight enhancement.

Hmm, the next stage of the "electric spine" from Southampton Docks to Immingham and Teesside?

 

[Waverley125]

Middlesbrough needs wiring both so freight can be converted to electric traction, so it can continue to recieve TP services, and so it can be rejoined to ECML long-distance services post-HS2.

On the subject of TPE, if improvements to the Huddersfield line do allow 6tph Leeds-Manchester, Middlesbrough would benefit on a three way split, with 2tph each between Leeds, Newcastle and Hull, with Scarborough tacked onto the York-Blackpool North service.

 

[johnnyp_360]

Just found this, some one is suggesting 2019 for Northallerton to Middlesbrough
.
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ne...ddlesbrough_to_Northallerton_railway_revived/

 

[D6975]

Middlesbrough needs wiring both so freight can be converted to electric traction, so it can continue to recieve TP services, and so it can be rejoined to ECML long-distance services post-HS2.

On the subject of TPE, if improvements to the Huddersfield line do allow 6tph Leeds-Manchester, Middlesbrough would benefit on a three way split, with 2tph each between Leeds, Newcastle and Hull, with Scarborough tacked onto the York-Blackpool North service.

There are already 6tph on much of this section at peak times.
Hudd-Man has 4 fasts and one stopper, with an extra stopper inbetween at peak times.
Leeds- Hudd has 4 fasts, one LDs-Hud stopper and stoppers to the Brighouse line from LDs/from the Brighouse line to Hudd effectively taking a sixth path.

I think the improvements will allow 6 through tph plus stoppers.

There's been one heck of a change on this route - I can remember when it was about 1tph across the pennines off-peak!

 

[bluenoxid]

What is stopping Middlesbrough receiving extension of York services post Electrification

 

[ainsworth74]

What is stopping Middlesbrough receiving extension of York services post Electrification

Nothing I suppose but without wires it means that Middlesbrough services will be running under the wires from Manchester Airport all the way to Notherallerton (112 miles under wires and 21 miles away from)!

 

[DarloRich]

total and utter wibble taken form the echo website comments section:

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ne...ddlesbrough_to_Northallerton_railway_revived/

"Perhaps Network Rail should consider the visual impact on the historic Yarm viaduct. What would be more sensible is a third-rail light-rail system from Yarm into Middlesbrough, stopping in Eaglescliffe. If it ran every 10 - 15 minutes, it may reduce traffic through Yarm?"

 

[bluenoxid]

total and utter wibble taken form the echo website comments section:

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ne...ddlesbrough_to_Northallerton_railway_revived/

"Perhaps Network Rail should consider the visual impact on the historic Yarm viaduct. What would be more sensible is a third-rail light-rail system from Yarm into Middlesbrough, stopping in Eaglescliffe. If it ran every 10 - 15 minutes, it may reduce traffic through Yarm?"

I am sure I have Brian Dunsby's phone number somewhere around here. He must be able to find some spare Tube Stock for that fantasy.

 

[lancastrian]

Middlesbrough needs wiring both so freight can be converted to electric traction, so it can continue to receive TP services, and so it can be rejoined to ECML long-distance services post-HS2.

On the subject of TPE, if improvements to the Huddersfield line do allow 6tph Leeds-Manchester, Middlesbrough would benefit on a three way split, with 2tph each between Leeds, Newcastle and Hull, with Scarborough tacked onto the York-Blackpool North service.

Not only that, if the lines from both Stockton Cut Junction & Bowesfield Junction, through Stockton to rejoin the ECML at Ferryhill Junction are also electrified. You will have a very useful diversion route from Northallerton throught to Ferryhill. That's just over 30 miles, it would save both from diesel haulage and from Bustitution. Just the start of electrifying the coast route to Newcastle.

 

[Kryten2340]

Not only that, if the lines from both Stockton Cut Junction & Bowesfield Junction, through Stockton to rejoin the ECML at Ferryhill Junction are also electrified. You will have a very useful diversion route from Northallerton throught to Ferryhill. That's just over 30 miles, it would save both from diesel haulage and from Bustitution. Just the start of electrifying the coast route to Newcastle.

You'll never get the entire coast route to Newcastle electrified. Not at least until Nexus get dual voltage trains when they replace the entire TW Metro fleet but that is not for a good few years yet.

 

[Wath Yard]

Teesside isn't a major railfreight hub anymore and I can't see it ever being part of the 'electric spine'. Neither is Immingham as such, therefore I wouldn't bet on electrification to Cleethorpes anytime in the next 20 years. Immingham is very busy for railfreight but apart from a few oil trains it is all imported iron ore for Scunthorpe and imported coal for power stations and Scunthorpe. The ore and coal trains will never be electrically hauled.

 

[ainsworth74]

Teesside isn't a major railfreight hub anymore and I can't see it ever being part of the 'electric spine'.

You mean apart from it being home to a port which handles 5,000 vessels per year along with 35 million tonnes of cargo making it one of the busiest UK ports? As well as being home to the UK's only Potash mine supplying over 1 million tonnes of potash and half a million tonnes of salt?* As well as a major steel producing blast furnace? Seems to me that there's quite a bit of railfreight still there and plenty more potential for railfreight in the Teesside area.

*Admittedly this would require a locomotive change at Tees Yard or wiring to Saltburn and then using a 'last mile' capable diesel locomotive but neither are insurmountable problems.

 

[Wath Yard]

What has a port that produces very little railfreight got to do with Teesside being a railfreight hub?

The potash services are not going to be electrically hauled. They aren't going to put the wires up to Boulby.

Defending your home region does not mean it produces a lot of railfreight. It doesn't which is why TE depot closed and Tees Yard is virtually non-existant these days.

 

[ainsworth74]

Clearly we're going to have to disagree on this one. But let me say I will be very surprised if the wires don't reach Teesside within the next 10-15 years.

 

[sprinterguy]

What has a port that produces very little railfreight got to do with Teesside being a railfreight hub?

The potash services are not going to be electrically hauled. They aren't going to put the wires up to Boulby.

Defending your home region does not mean it produces a lot of railfreight. It doesn't which is why TE depot closed and Tees Yard is virtually non-existant these days.

Thornaby depot closed because over the last decade or so all the major railfreight operators, most pertinently EWS/DB Schenker in this instance, have driven for big increases in efficiency with regard to locomotive utilisation and crewing hours off the back of the introduction of class 66s. The maximum utilisation policy of modern day railfreight means that there just isn't a need for large numbers of regional depots where locos can be stabled between duties, when maintenance between long and intensive shifts can be carried out more effectively by a single hub depot. Block load railfreight also means that there isn't as much call for marshalling yards where trains can be reformed, and again more efficient use of the wagon stock means that rakes don't spend as much time laying over between duties any more.

There is still plenty of railfreight heading to and from Teesside. Most notably, and of greatest relevance to electrication proposals, a fairly heavy intermodal traffic (There still seem to be plenty of container trains heading that way to me).

 

[ainsworth74]

(There still seem to be plenty of container trains heading that way to me).

Yup they have a terminal handling container traffic located in the area and have traffic heading towards Southampton and Felixstowe. As I said last night there is still plenty of traffic in the Teesside area and I would be very surprised if it isn't wired in the next ten to fifteen years.

 

[Waverley125]

Middlesbrough's also just quite a big place. Allowing TPE to run there more frequently & getting direct trains back to London would be very good for the region. Same's true of Immingham & Grimsby.

 

[Bevan Price]

I think if electrification to Middlesbrough occurs, it will only be sensible / viable if the plan also includes Darlington to Saltburn & Stockton electrification. So, maybe by the 2030's ?

 

[tbtc]

I think if electrification to Middlesbrough occurs, it will only be sensible / viable if the plan also includes Darlington to Saltburn & Stockton electrification. So, maybe by the 2030's ?

The question is what to do with the infrequent Bishop Auckland line and the Hartlepool line (convert the Sunderland branch of the Metro to take heavy rail EMUs?).

But if these are logical follow ones from CP5 then why not do them in CP6 (2019 - 2024)?

 

[Bevan Price]

The question is what to do with the infrequent Bishop Auckland line and the Hartlepool line (convert the Sunderland branch of the Metro to take heavy rail EMUs?).

But if these are logical follow ones from CP5 then why not do them in CP6 (2019 - 2024)?

Don't disagree that 2019 - 2024 would be a good idea, but I was just thinking about when those in charge might actually approve funding.

I suspect that Darlington - Bishop Auckland will become a last resting place for old dmu's.

Stokton - Hartlepool - Sunderland electrification would also make some sense operationally, but I fear that DfT & their masters in the treasury will never consider it financially viable (unless someone decides to build a couple of new towns on the route. )

 

[DarloRich]

I think if electrification to Middlesbrough occurs, it will only be sensible / viable if the plan also includes Darlington to Saltburn & Stockton electrification. So, maybe by the 2030's ?

What? I Don't think so! What are you going to do with Darlo- Bishop? Why stop at Stockton? i mean no trains actually end there but lets make that the cut off point. That should allow for sensible diagramming of services. Hartlepooh might have been a better suggestion.

Boro will only get electrified as it is a terminus for TPE. Otherwise it becomes an appendix, an island of diesel operation in a sea of electric operations, and ripe for removal from their network. I have to say there is no real business case for it. Your case would have to be built on fringe benefits, operation of a single train type, reduced maintenance costs, streamlining depots operations etc and you need a LOT of those to make it worth the investment! You might also suggest the reputational damage to the railways in running 15-20 miles worth of diesel service under 100's of miles of wires.

It is possible that this, along with high level political lobbying, may make it happen. There is no other way that i can see as the business returns are simply not there.

There is no real freight based case, unless perhaps Teesport achieves its northern gateway ambitions and expands container traffic exponentially. Although the steel works at Redcar has turned out its 1mth tonne of steel in 5 months almost all of that goes out by ship form Teesport. The refinieries and chemical works of Teeside are not what they once were, more is the pity and ICI is long gone.

That said i think it SHOULD happen, simply to provide 100% coverage of the TPE network. It is the sensible thing to do but not the easy thing to do as you will spend a great deal for very little tangible reward.

 

[Ploughman]

Don't disagree that 2019 - 2024 would be a good idea, but I was just thinking about when those in charge might actually approve funding.

I suspect that Darlington - Bishop Auckland will become a last resting place for old dmu's.

Stokton - Hartlepool - Sunderland electrification would also make some sense operationally, but I fear that DfT & their masters in the treasury will never consider it financially viable (unless someone decides to build a couple of new towns on the route. )

I would have thought that Darlington - BA would have been wired ahead of time due to the proposed assembly plant for new stock being built alongside the line.

 

[bluenoxid]

The question is what to do with the infrequent Bishop Auckland line and the Hartlepool line (convert the Sunderland branch of the Metro to take heavy rail EMUs?).

But if these are logical follow ones from CP5 then why not do them in CP6 (2019 - 2024)?

Sunderland route could see dual voltage EMU's (or conversion of Sunderland extension to 25kV) or the diversion of services to Newcastle Central. However, any Newcastle - Middlesborough service is desirably going to be via Durham for speed, so the loss would not be shocking.

My view is that Sunderland Extension services are placed into Newcastle Central in new bays to the south of the station and existing services are sent to a point near Washington. Some thought could roll some of the new Heavy Rail Services into Morpeth or the Metrocentre (evicting more DMU's from the North East)

I don't want to say that Bishop Auckland or Saltburn would lie on a limb. It would be nice to see the train assembling plant lead to electrification but nothing surprises me.

What about Nunthorpe?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Otherwise it becomes an appendix, an island of diesel operation in a sea of electric operations, and ripe for removal from their network.

Going to be interesting to see what happens to the line via Warrington Central, which to me is screaming for wiring.

 

[Waverley125]

I'd expect all of Bishop Auckland-Saltburn to go to 25kv AC as part of the TVM.

As has been said, fast Newcastle-Middlesbrough services should go via Durham.

My expectation for the Durham Coast would be extension of the T&W while diesels are kept in service there (they'll also still be working Middlesbrough-Whitby services as well). Eventually the DCL will get 25kV AC, and the T&W will require dual-voltage units to run the service. This is particularly likely if Leamside re-opening, and the spur into Durham, is on the table. Simply, the T&W will have two types of Stock, one dual voltage for south of Gateshead, and one single voltage for north of Gateshead.

 

[HSTEd]

You might be able to justify electrification to Middlesborough via Darlington if the Tees Valley Metro goes ahead and puts the off peak service up to 4tph, but the standard route is probably a long way off.

 

[tbtc]

Sunderland route could see dual voltage EMU's (or conversion of Sunderland extension to 25kV) or the diversion of services to Newcastle Central. However, any Newcastle - Middlesborough service is desirably going to be via Durham for speed, so the loss would not be shocking.

My view is that Sunderland Extension services are placed into Newcastle Central in new bays to the south of the station and existing services are sent to a point near Washington. Some thought could roll some of the new Heavy Rail Services into Morpeth or the Metrocentre (evicting more DMU's from the North East)

I don't want to say that Bishop Auckland or Saltburn would lie on a limb. It would be nice to see the train assembling plant lead to electrification but nothing surprises me.

What about Nunthorpe?

Maybe the "solution" would be to run Bishop Auckland to Whitby as a roughly bi-hourly through route (via Darlington, Middlesbrough and Nunthorpe) run by 156s (tying up two loose ends) with everything else through Darlington/ Middlesbrough in the hands of EMUs?

A heavy rail conversion of the "Sunderland extension" makes sense to me - allowing the Durham Coast line to be properly wired.

It's faster to do Newcastle - Middlesbrough through Durham (than Sunderland), but the number of fast trains on the Durham line would make that harder to path (there are already five an hour from Newcastle to York via Darlington - more if TPE's service becomes a half-hourly Liverpool route - are there paths for a slower EMU to squeeze between these?).

Going to be interesting to see what happens to the line via Warrington Central, which to me is screaming for wiring.

Warrington Central should really be wired ahead of some (infrequent) lines that are seeing electrification (Ebbq Vale, Maesteg etc).