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If every TOC gained ten new coaches (hypothetical)

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tbtc

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Pretend for a moment that each TOC gained ten new coaches* for free (of an existing type, compatible with current stock, with no need for maintenance etc).

Based on the current situation (ignoring planned electrification etc), what would you use them on? Capacity or new routes?

  • East Coast - extend the current bi-hourly off peak Newark terminators to York
  • XC - Some more doubled up Voyagers on the "core" from Newcastle to Bristol
  • Northern - Doubling up DMUs on the Calder Valley route
  • EMT - Extend the current five coach London - Sheffield service to Leeds each hour
  • Virgin - double up more of the single Voyagers
  • ATW - Put them all on the Cardiff Bay shuttle, and save on fuel by getting passengers to walk from one end of the stationary train to the other

* - i.e. enough to give some increase in service/ capacity, without going into "fantasy" land - am more interested in what the stock would do than getting into debate about whether you'd go for "commuter" doors/ disabled toilets/ what colour the seats would be
 
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Aictos

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1. Extend the Newark Northgate services though to York.
2. Extend the York services to Newcastle.
3. Extend Newcastle services to Edinburgh

:)
 

Yew

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I think the bi hourly Newark terminators would be hard pushed to get to York and maintain timings with the equivalent of 1 HST set, however the extension to Lincoln (where they where intended to go) should be possible, although a 9 car train might be overkill, maybe two 5+2 HST's? They might also fit on lincolns platform.
 

gnolife

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TPX - extend trains going through the Manchester - Bolton - Preston corridor to
4 coaches.
EMT - Extend trains on the Crewe - Derby route to 2 coaches
VT - Donate your 10 coaches to TPX - there's much more demand for them there.
LM - Extend the trains on Birmingham - Hereford and Birmingham - Shrewsbury routes to 3 coach minimum, with 4 provided where possible
ATW - Make 10 of the 11 175/0s 3 coaches long, to reduce overcrowding on peak Marches services
GA - Do what the hell you like with them, but keep them in good nick please :D
SWT - Maybe an actual EMU for Lymington, with the other 6/7 coaches going to extend some 458s for use on Reading services
FGW - These would just go on Pacer replacement
Northern - Increasing capacity on the Huddersfield - Manchester Vic stoppers would be nice

The other ToCs I don't know enough about to be able to suggest where the stock can go.
 

cuccir

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Sticking to the TOCs that I'm most familiar with

XC - Capacity, capacity, capacity, focusing on core Bristol-Newcastle and Birmingham-Peterborough routes
TPE - Use them to create new services so that they can scrap the current trains which split, and put the rest to use on capacity between Manchester-Leeds and Manchester-Preston
EC - Extend Newark stoppers alternately to York and Lincoln
Northern - Just 10?? Then I'll use two to increase the Bishop Auckland Line services to hourly, because I'm selfish, and give the rest to Manchester/West Yorkshire!
 

Ivo

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Four from me:

AW: Rhymney improved to half-hourly; Maesteg improved to half-hourly; SwanLine improved to hourly (I think that's ten coaches' worth!)
CC: Ten coaches won't make much difference! :p I think a Fenchurch Street to Barking via Stratford shuttle would do. Twice an hour would need eight coaches
GA: Improve Southend service to 4tph (would require eight coaches if the speed is improved)
GW: Severn Beach to half-hourly; otherwise improved services to Paignton and Banbury
 

LE Greys

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Most of the former NSE area, increase some commuter trains by the equivalent of one unit (4-car to 8-car or 8-car to 12-car) depending on platform capacity.

Non-NSE commuter services, especially Northern. Double up units during the peaks wherever possible.

Scotrail, always run 170+170 out of Edinburgh, making it possible to double up 158s on other services.

East Coast, use the extra train (trains if they are 180s) to get the Lincoln service going.

Virgin, replace the Pretendolino (sorry) and cascade that somewhere else, possibly East Coas or East Anglia.

FGW, if it's a pair of 180s, make sure that all Turbos are off the Oxford Flyer, so that can increase to guarenteed 125mph speeds and the spare Turbos can reinforce the Thames Valley stoppers. If it's a bunch of 158s, replace 150s on some services, allowing them to reinforce commuter trains around Bristol. If its 150s, reinforce commuter trains around Bristol.
 

calc7

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East Coast, use the extra train (trains if they are 180s) to get the Lincoln service going.

Virgin, replace the Pretendolino (sorry) and cascade that somewhere else, possibly East Coas or East Anglia.

Can you, or somebody else, please link me to the business case for this much-applauded Lincoln service? I imagine it's more likely to be a Corby-esque train of fresh air.

The Pretendolino is only used once a week (or sometimes stands in for a unit being mended) - are you honestly suggesting 10 new carriages are sat around in sidings all week? I'm rather sure Virgin would prefer to run a MK shuttle than do that with it.
 

LE Greys

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Can you, or somebody else, please link me to the business case for this much-applauded Lincoln service? I imagine it's more likely to be a Corby-esque train of fresh air.

The Pretendolino is only used once a week (or sometimes stands in for a unit being mended) - are you honestly suggesting 10 new carriages are sat around in sidings all week? I'm rather sure Virgin would prefer to run a MK shuttle than do that with it.

I can't find the passenger figures, but Lincoln sounds like a 'route of suppressed demand' because of its poor service to London. It's a city of nearly 90,000 people and a county town. The situation is similar to Hull before that opened up. Corby is more likely to be a result of poor route growth and a lack of access to Leicester than anything else. I'd need figures for road use between Corby and Leicester for that, though.

I've never been sure about what the Pretendolino was used for, I was just thinking that Virgin might like to get shot of the non-standard, old stock which they are using for expediency. Maybe they can find some use for the new stock, but the WCML isn't my line. MK shuttles, which I would probably extend to Northampton depending on what the situation is with LM.
 

trentside

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I can't find the passenger figures, but Lincoln sounds like a 'route of suppressed demand' because of its poor service to London. It's a city of nearly 90,000 people and a county town. The situation is similar to Hull before that opened up. Corby is more likely to be a result of poor route growth and a lack of access to Leicester than anything else. I'd need figures for road use between Corby and Leicester for that, though.

Indeed, I think this is a fair assumption. Quite a number of people from Lincoln continue to drive to Newark to connect with East Coast services to London, rather than take the shuttle service from Lincoln to Newark Northgate - some of these don't connect as well with EC services thanks to the EC terminators which use the same platform. Certainly there's a better business case for running a London - Lincoln service than a London - Newark service which blocks connection opportunities from Lincoln.

Anyway, some additional suggestions;

If EMT were to gain 10 additional carriages, I'd look to strengthen some existing services - particularly those between Derby and Crewe via Stoke. I'd also look at providing a more regular service between Lincoln and Grimsby (possibly onto Cleethorpes).
 

SprinterMan

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Good Question :D
I am not going to include any airport expresses (Gatwick Express, Heathrow Express, Heathrow Connect, Stansted Express etc.) or "Metro" TOCs (Merseyrail, London Overground etc.). Also I am aware that most of the trains I suggest are no longer in production, this is just what I would do in an ideal world.
Here are my suggestions:

Virgin Trains - 3 Super Voyager centre coaches to form 221144 back up to 5 cars, 6 Pendolino centre coaches to form a further 3 Pendolinos up to 11 cars, and 1 Super Voyager centre coach to be given to XC. Use 221144 to give Llandudno back it's daily London service.

CrossCountry - 1 Super Voyager centre coach from VT to give 221141 5 cars, and 10 Turbostar centre coaches to form 10 2-car 170s up to 3 coaches to eliminate overcrowding on peak Stansted trains.

First TransPennine Express - 10 185 centre coaches to form 10 185s up to 4 cars for use on the buisiest services.

First Hull Trains - 2 complete 180s to finally deal with fleet availability issues.

Grand Central - 2 complete 180s to give Sunderland and/or Bradford an additional service, wherever demand is greatest.

East Midlands Trains - 5 complete 2-car 158s to make more Norwich trains 4 cars.

Arriva Trains Wales - 5 complete 2-car 158s to help with overcrowding, 4-car 158s can be run vice 3-car 175s on peak Manchester-Llandudno trains.

c2c - 2 complete 357s to increase capacity and 2 360 cars for Greater Anglia.

Greater Anglia - 3 complete 360s (10 carriages +2 carriages from c2c) to help with peak overcrowding.

South West Trains - 2 complete 450s so Lymington branch can be 450 operated all the times. 2 350 cars for LM.

London Midland - 3 complete 350s (10 carriages +2 carriages from SWT) to help with peak overcrowding.

First Capital Connect - 2 complete 377/5s to deal with overcrowding issues and 2 375 carriages for SET.

Southeastern - 3 complete 4-car 375s (10 carriages +2 carriages from FCC) to deal with overcrowding issues.

Southern - 2 extra 5-car 377/6s to deal with overcrowding issues.

Northern - 5 complete 156s to increase capacity (everyone seems to be getting 158s so lets be different and get 156s :P).

First ScotRail - 2 complete 3-car 170s and 2 complete 2-car 158s to increase capacity.

Chiltern Railways - 10 Mark 3 coaches to increase the length of LHCS trains to deal with passenger numbers growth.

First Great Western - 10 158 centre coaches to complete the following 158 reform: Reform the 12 hybrid 3-car 158s back into 18 2-car 158s. Increase 10 of these to normal 3-car 158s (like 158798) using the 10 new 158 centre cars. FGW now have 10 2-car 158s (8 former hybrid + 158763 and 158766). These can be paired up to runs as 4-car 158s, so FGW have gone from having 13 3-car 158s and 2 2-car 158s to 11 3-car 158s and 5 4-car 158s. This stops hybrid 158 running which makes maintenance schedules a nightmare, increases capacity and should stop 150s appearing on long distance services.

East Coast - 8 Mark 3 coaches and 2 Class 43s to be used with a stored Mark 3 to form a new 2+9 HST to increase Lincoln services.


Adam :D
 
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TheBigD

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Can you, or somebody else, please link me to the business case for this much-applauded Lincoln service? I imagine it's more likely to be a Corby-esque train of fresh air...

I can't find the passenger figures, but Lincoln sounds like a 'route of suppressed demand' because of its poor service to London. It's a city of nearly 90,000 people and a county town. The situation is similar to Hull before that opened up. Corby is more likely to be a result of poor route growth and a lack of access to Leicester than anything else. I'd need figures for road use between Corby and Leicester for that, though...

I tend to agree with calc7. Residents of the Lincoln catchment area drive to Newark, which has reasonable access from the A46 and plenty of parking. Driving into Lincoln is a pain and parking isn't that great. A 2 hourly through service to London isn't going to persuade that many to ditch the drive to Newark which has at least 2 trains an hour for most of the day.
 

LE Greys

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I tend to agree with calc7. Residents of the Lincoln catchment area drive to Newark, which has reasonable access from the A46 and plenty of parking. Driving into Lincoln is a pain and parking isn't that great. A 2 hourly through service to London isn't going to persuade that many to ditch the drive to Newark which has at least 2 trains an hour for most of the day.

Which is exactly what I mean by suppressed demand. There needs to be a plan to grow the service to hourly over time, just as there needs to be a plan to extend the Corby trains right through and loop them round to Leicester.

Although, since I don't drive, I always forget about parking and just assume everyone gets the bus to the station.
 

sprinterguy

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The Pretendolino is only used once a week (or sometimes stands in for a unit being mended) - are you honestly suggesting 10 new carriages are sat around in sidings all week? I'm rather sure Virgin would prefer to run a MK shuttle than do that with it.
The fact that the Pretendolino also gets brought out to work a full day diagram between Euston and Birmingham when a Pendolino is unavailable at short notice makes it apparent that Virgin could do with a little more slack in their Pendolino fleet. It would be better from an operational perspective for Virgin to have a squadron fleet of Pendolinos available to work all electric services rather than having one odd-ball mark 3 formation. Plus it wouldn’t hurt to have the flexibility to transfer a couple more turns on the Birmingham – Scotland route over to Pendolino operation when the additional 390 isn’t diagrammed elsewhere, and to better be able to cope with short periods of forecasted high demand.
 

calc7

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The fact that the Pretendolino also gets brought out to work a full day diagram between Euston and Birmingham when a Pendolino is unavailable at short notice makes it apparent that Virgin could do with a little more slack in their Pendolino fleet. It would be better from an operational perspective for Virgin to have a squadron fleet of Pendolinos available to work all electric services rather than having one odd-ball mark 3 formation. Plus it wouldn’t hurt to have the flexibility to transfer a couple more turns on the Birmingham – Scotland route over to Pendolino operation when the additional 390 isn’t diagrammed elsewhere, and to better be able to cope with short periods of forecasted high demand.

What is so bad about the Pretendolino. It's otherwise-unused stock that forms a good stand-in. It may be a bit slower than a 390 but I doubt it makes that much difference on the BHM diagrams. Replacing its "diagram" with a Pendo would be ridiculous imo - it provides excellent operational flexibility at minimal cost.
 

IanXC

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The fact that the Pretendolino also gets brought out to work a full day diagram between Euston and Birmingham when a Pendolino is unavailable at short notice makes it apparent that Virgin could do with a little more slack in their Pendolino fleet.

I do wonder whether that'll still be the case once the Pendolino extension project is finished. Perhaps it has been more convenient to keep it for now than stretch the fleet to cover the project like any other TOC would do.
 

tbtc

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Its heartening to see that "lengthening existing trains" seems to be a bigger priority for most TOC suggestions than "additional services". On most routes there are already sufficient trains, just not long enough!

I tend to agree with calc7. Residents of the Lincoln catchment area drive to Newark, which has reasonable access from the A46 and plenty of parking. Driving into Lincoln is a pain and parking isn't that great. A 2 hourly through service to London isn't going to persuade that many to ditch the drive to Newark which has at least 2 trains an hour for most of the day.

The problem with this is that it suggests that a large number of Lincoln/Lincolnshire people are already using the train to London, just driving to Newark and parking there to do so.

It doesn't encourage the figures for extending some London - Newark services to/from Lincoln (since the "benefit" to the railway would only be the small amount of revenue between a London - Newark ticket and a London - Lincoln ticket)
 
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