If service has been withdrawn over a line, does it still cost someone as long as its in existence ?

[24Grange]

Forgive me but curious as to current requirements. Once a TOC has withdrawn a service, and no more trains are using a section of line ( like Heathfield branch, Moorswater etc) Why is it "mothballed" and not just ripped up? NO maintainence is done on the abandoned line, so it just rots. In the 60's ( Dr Beeching - Bless him) was closing 1/3 of the railways and they were all ripped up pretty quickly, unless the PW and contractors were to busy ripping up track somewhere else to do it quickly everywhere.

Now , post privatisation, track, and sometimes everything else is just left to rot . Exeter Coal Concentration depot, Exmouth Junction appears to still have track even though it has full sized silver birches in the 4 foot ( and a fence erected along the centre line ) - Croxley Green was around for decades.

The scrap value in the 1960's was always cited to be used to pay off some of BR debt , so why is everything left in place now ?

Also what was the difference in BR removing a line ( and all infrastructure) and getting Joe Bloggs demolition to do it?

Is it a negative cost on everyone, so they don't do it, rather than a positive one ( reuse signalling, nice shiny steel for scrap, sell the land off and the station for a "trendy wine bar")?

 

[ExRes]

What happens if in 10 years time there's reason to reopen the line? if the sites are covered in stunning luxury apartments and other unaffordable affordable housing then there's no option to reinstate an environmentally preferable transport system, sell it off for short term gain and there's no going back

 

[The Planner]

Depends if the cost of recovery outweighs what you would get back, which in many cases it probably won't. There is also the daft issue of if you try and remove something permanently the processes required normally result in a rejection from operators even if it has no obvious use.

 

[Mat17]

On a similar theme, what happens when a line gets mothballed as indicated by the OP and lays dormant for 10-20 years and has trees and vegetation growing through it and then they decide it was a mistake to close it and reopen it?

Do they have to replace the degraded infrastructure in its entirety, thinking of silver birches in the four foot, or just trim back what needs trimming and replace just the damaged bits.

There's some sidings that look so overgrown and delapidated, it looks like the tracks wouldn't actually take it, even though nominally they're still available for use.

 

[edwin_m]

Even if the track is removed, structures and possibly earthworks will need periodic inspection to confirm they remain safe, for example bridges might be at risk of collapsing under or onto the road. I suspect nothing needs to be spent on the track, if left in place but not actually used. Sometimes the structures are demolished or infilled to reduce/eliminate that cost, but that makes reopening either as a railway or as an active travel route much more difficult.

If re-opening is proposed, all surviving infrastructure will need assessment to establish whether it needs to be repaired or replaced to be suitable for the proposed use, and how much that will cost. This will take account of existing condition and whether the use is for occasional freight or fast passenger for example. If, as is typical, nothing then happens for a few years then that assessment will need repeating because things will have deteriorated in the meanwhile. That's one of many reasons why feasibility studies are needed to establish the business case for a re-opening.

 

[snowball]

Sometimes there are legal responsibilities associated with a line that remain active even after the line is closed, such as maintaining sea defences.

 

[Bald Rick]

There are two different and separate closure procedures for passenger lines:

1) to withdraw passenger services over a stretch of line
2) to formally remove that stretch of line, and any stations, from the network

Scrap value of track is relatively low. Old sleepers are essentially worthless unless they can be reused, and only good condition concrete sleepers compatible with certain types of fastenening can be reused. The scrap value of rail is about £15k-£25k per kilometre of track, and it needs to be cheaper than that to cut up the track, lift it, load it onto whatever vehicles are being used, and transport it to the metal reprocessor.

 

[Irascible]

On a practical note - Heathfield did get some freight traffic again in relatively recent years - there's been some bemoaning at times of the lack of terminal facilities, these little low maintenance branches can still have value. They don't necessarily need Okehampton levels of rebuilding either.

Trees are going to play hell with earthworks though, that would need a start-over effort I'd think. For sidings you can reuse track ( ballast too maybe ) lifted from, say, a main line during renewals so most of the cost would be the labour. You are intending to use the facility anyway at that point.

 

[trebor79]

On a similar theme, what happens when a line gets mothballed as indicated by the OP and lays dormant for 10-20 years and has trees and vegetation growing through it and then they decide it was a mistake to close it and reopen it?

The Leamside branch is probably the most notable example of this. It is still technically mothballed, even though all of the remaining track we removed a few years ago (it was singled and all of the signalling removed south of Belmont back in the early 1990's).
Justification given for removing the remaining track was that it would all have to be replaced anyway if the line were to be reopened. That sounds a bit surprising given it was mainly CWR on concrete sleepers that hadn't seen much use since it was laid. Some of the embankments had slipped though so it would have required more than a quick tamp to bring back into use. Never seemed to get much vegetation growing through the ballast for some reason.

 

[Mat17]

Justification given for removing the remaining track was that it would all have to be replaced anyway if the line were to be reopened.

That's exactly what I was thinking!

 

[coppercapped]

Regarding the OP's original question, which stretch of line has he in mind where a TOC has removed the passenger service? Apart from the Oldham Loop which was closed in 2009 and converted to tram operation and the Weymouth Harbour tramway I'm hard put to it to think of any line, at least in England, which lost its passenger services after 1994. The examples given date back to BR times.

As for stuff being left to rot, BR was very good at that as well. There were many places where the 'fixtures and fittings' were left in place for years with little or no use. The sidings at Southall and Slough for example in my part of the world or those at Moreton near Didcot.

 

[mcmad]

Regarding the OP's original question, which stretch of line has he in mind where a TOC has removed the passenger service? Apart from the Oldham Loop which was closed in 2009 and converted to tram operation and the Weymouth Harbour tramway I'm hard put to it to think of any line, at least in England, which lost its passenger services after 1994. The examples given date back to BR times.

Not in England but with the withdrawal of the daily Glasgow to Fife commuter train there is no booked service between Winchburgh and Dalmeny Jcns. Other than the occasional engineering train I can't think of anything using that stretch at all now.

 

[S&CLER]

Not in England but with the withdrawal of the daily Glasgow to Fife commuter train there is no booked service between Winchburgh and Dalmeny Jcns. Other than the occasional engineering train I can't think of anything using that stretch at all now.

I think the connecting line from HS1 to the Chatham main line near Longfield hasn't had any regular use since the second section of HS1 opened.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

In the 60s, rail use was declining, road building was soaring, as Minis were hitting the streets.
Now the roads are clogged, and rail travel is gradually gaining in popularity despite high fares.
Lucky they didn't rip up the Ashington Line etc, now work is being done to reopen it.
Must lines closed were ones that duplicated other routes, extensive effort was made to reduce the number of towns left without a rail service, as the Serpell Report earlier, was far worse than what Beeching suggested.

 

[D6130]

Although not a passenger line, the East end of Healey Mills Yard is still shown in the Sectional Appendix as operational....even though there are full-sized birch trees and other sturdy bushes and shrubs growing in the four foot and generally across the tracks. The relevant running and shunt signals are however still illuminated....if you can see them through the all-encroaching undergrowth!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

At Rock Ferry, the birch trees grow ever higher/thicker on the former 4-track route towards Birkenhead Woodside and the docks.
To make it more interesting, there are active colour light signals staring out of the undergrowth, visible from passing Merseyrail trains before they commence the steep incline towards Green Lane and the Mersey Tunnel.
This is all on a viaduct/tunnel route through Birkenhead which needs to be maintained.
It's hard to imagine the route will ever be used again, and it will cost a pretty penny to reinstate if it is.
There was also access to the former Birkenhead docks rail system from the Bidston side.

 

[The Planner]

At Rock Ferry, the birch trees grow ever higher/thicker on the former 4-track route towards Birkenhead Woodside and the docks.
To make it more interesting, there are active colour light signals staring out of the undergrowth, visible from passing Merseyrail trains before they commence the steep incline towards Green Lane and the Mersey Tunnel.
This is all on a viaduct/tunnel route through Birkenhead which needs to be maintained.
It's hard to imagine the route will ever be used again, and it will cost a pretty penny to reinstate if it is.
There was also access to the former Birkenhead docks rail system from the Bidston side.

Docks route is dead. There are talks for NR to relinquish a lot of it for redevelopment.

 

[Horizon22]

I think the connecting line from HS1 to the Chatham main line near Longfield hasn't had any regular use since the second section of HS1 opened.

Its actually completed blocked after Fawkham Junction. It was only used for about 5 years as a temporary fix anyway and was never meant to be used in the long term. Track bed is still there though, should there be a future need. The relelvant passenger service (Eurostar) still runs, albeit to a different terminal of course.

 

[D6130]

Lucky they didn't rip up the Ashington Line etc, now work is being done to reopen it.

Although it closed to passenger traffic in 1954, the Ashington line has remained open for freight, so it will require less work and expenditure than an equivalent reopening scheme for a line which had been completely abandoned.

 

[BluePenguin]

Its actually completed blocked after Fawkham Junction. It was only used for about 5 years as a temporary fix anyway and was never meant to be used in the long term. Track bed is still there though, should there be a future need. The relelvant passenger service (Eurostar) still runs, albeit to a different terminal of course.

If they removed the block, could a train still run over the track today though?

 

[BigB]

This is used daily by 5N91 - route familiarisation for diversions one of the benefits

Realtime Trains - 5N91 1215 Haymarket Depot to Edinburgh

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Not in England but with the withdrawal of the daily Glasgow to Fife commuter train there is no booked service between Winchburgh and Dalmeny Jcns. Other than the occasional engineering train I can't think of anything using that stretch at all now

 

[Horizon22]

If they removed the block, could a train still run over the track today though?

Fairly sure the signalling is no longer commissioned, but could a train theoretically run on the rails? I'm not sure.

 

[Ashley Hill]

like Heathfield branch

A while ago there was a local company wanting to reopen the line as a commuter/tourist railway. Their plans did seem a bit Titfield Thunderbolt-ish and have not been heard of in a while.
If the mothballed line from Bicester had been ripped after close of play would that of made East/West rail less likely to have happened?

 

[alangla]

Alloa and Levenmouth are two examples of abandoned but not closed routes that are being/have been reopened. Both needed total rebuilding. Alloa to Dunfermline now has no traffic at all since Longannet closed other than very occasional freight diversions, but it did get a visit from Tornado on an SRPS tour last weekend.

Regarding the OP's original question, which stretch of line has he in mind where a TOC has removed the passenger service? Apart from the Oldham Loop which was closed in 2009 and converted to tram operation and the Weymouth Harbour tramway I'm hard put to it to think of any line, at least in England, which lost its passenger services after 1994. The examples given date back to BR times.

There’s a curve at Cowlairs that was only served by the Fort William sleeper in one direction. At one point shortly after privatisation, the last Cumbernauld train of the night was diverted to run over this curve via a couple of reversals but in more recent years the sleeper was diverted to run via Bathgate and the curve had no service at all. It does sometimes see the odd diverted sleeper, including this week, and the summer Sunday only Edinburgh to Oban train but that hasn’t run this year or last.

 

[cnjb8]

In Kimberley in Nottinghamshire, one of the former railway bridges in the town was demolished and replaced by a footbridge. Must have cost quite a bit

 

[bus man]

In BR days - presume it no longer happens - one of the roads to walney island was on a former track bed. The actual road was maintained by the highway authority but the embankment and bridges were maintained by BR as the highest authority wasn’t prepared to take on the liability

 

[McRhu]

Why is it always birch trees?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why is it always birch trees?

They are rather fast growing, and establish themselves quite quickly, particularly in the initial 10-15 years after seeding. Can grow upwards by some three feet a year.

 

[randyrippley]

Why is it always birch trees?

Airblown seeds - and they love limestone