If St Pancras had been demolished?

[DerekC]

If St Pancras had been demolished in the 1960s, where would MML services have gone?

 

[RT4038]

If St Pancras had been demolished in the 1960s, where would MML services have gone?

I believe the plan would have seen trains from Derby & Leicester go to Euston (via the Market Harborough-Northampton line) and Sheffield & Nottingham services to King's Cross (via Retford and Grantham respectively). Kettering & Wellingborough would have been served by an extension of the suburban service from Bedford to Moorgate (and Snow Hill line?)

 

[Vespa]

I would assume one of two things, Kings Cross and St Pancras platforms being merged with road in between dug up or a massive brutalists concrete block replacing St Pancras station while the track will remain in situ, the ugly frontage in front of Kings Cross would be extended in front of both stations.

Thankfully that didn't happen and the beauty of St Pancras station remains for us to admire.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would assume one of two things, Kings Cross and St Pancras platforms being merged with road in between dug up or a massive brutalists concrete block replacing St Pancras station while the track will remain in situ, the ugly frontage in front of Kings Cross would be extended in front of both stations.

I'm not sure that was ever on the horizon. The whole point of closing St Pancras was it was expensive to run and comparatively little used. It would have therefore been fairly non-sensical to construct a gigantic mega station merging Kings Cross and St Pancras!

 

[RT4038]

I would assume one of two things, Kings Cross and St Pancras platforms being merged with road in between dug up or a massive brutalists concrete block replacing St Pancras station while the track will remain in situ, the ugly frontage in front of Kings Cross would be extended in front of both stations.

Thankfully that didn't happen and the beauty of St Pancras station remains for us to admire.

No - the intention was a complete redevelopment of site and station throat area. It must be remembered that this proposal was in an era of fallen and still falling rail demand, and investment money only being available by profitably disposing of valuable assets for development.
The twin track line from the City widened lines, and platform capacity at Moorgate, for MML suburban service, compared reasonably well with a similar situation down the road at Marylebone.
Both the ECML and WCML had investment (actual and proposed) and it was seen that maximising use of these assets was the way to go.

 

[Senex]

There were also three different schemes considered for getting into Euston. At the time of the EML electrification the idea of using the Midland line from Wigston to Rugby was tentatively considered, and in the sixties the Market Harborough to Northampton line came into consideration as did (in Beeching II) new connections at Glen Blaby and Rugby with use of the GC line between those points (the junctions are located and named in the first issue of the National Route Codes Catalogue).

 

[Vespa]

No - the intention was a complete redevelopment of site and station throat area. It must be remembered that this proposal was in an era of fallen and still falling rail demand, and investment money only being available by profitably disposing of valuable assets for development.
The twin track line from the City widened lines, and platform capacity at Moorgate, for MML suburban service, compared reasonably well with a similar situation down the road at Marylebone.
Both the ECML and WCML had investment (actual and proposed) and it was seen that maximising use of these assets was the way to go.

I was only a child at the time so not aware of the railway politics of the time or indeed the archite rural fashion of the time.

That said, I'm glad St Pancras has been saved, the attitude of the time was to destroy and replace, when enter modes use buildings they leave me cold and has no character, many town centres lost their historic buildings replaced by soulless concrete constructions that aged badly, which in hindsight was seen as a massive mistake.

 

[yorksrob]

The destruction of the Euston Arch, was in many ways the vaccine that mobilised people against the destruction of masterpieces such as St Pancras.

 

[JonathanH]

Was there a masterplan for the St Pancras / Kings Cross / Somers Town site in the 1960s? The site, including the various goods yards, would have been substantial but some of the development - first the British Library and then the Francis Crick institute on the goods station - has taken a long time to come to fruition.

Would the whole site just have been social housing?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The destruction of the Euston Arch, was in many ways the vaccine that mobilised people against the destruction of masterpieces such as St Pancras.

Not a bad one to sacrifice - it was a carbuncle (and in the way of extending the platforms).

 

[yorksrob]

Not a bad one to sacrifice - it was a carbuncle (and in the way of extending the platforms).

I think it was splendid in its way - but could have been moved, as was acknowledged at the time.

I'm probably unusual in that I like the new Euston - but the Arch would have looked splendid in front of it !

 

[EbbwJunction1]

The problem with retaining impressive looking old buildings (and this is general, not just St Pancras) is that in many cases, they are simply life expired, don't have a use and / or falling down.

There's lots of comments on a couple of F***book topics regarding "Old Newport" moaning about the buildings that have been demolished and replaced with modern (admittedly sometimes not very attractive) buildings. The thing is that quite a number of the buildings concerned were falling down and it simply wasn't practical or was too expensive to retain and refurbish them.

I realise that it's not an easy problem to solve, but there's much more to the proposal that just because a building is old and looks good it should be retained at any cost.

 

[70014IronDuke]

There were also three different schemes considered for getting into Euston. At the time of the EML electrification the idea of using the Midland line from Wigston to Rugby was tentatively considered, and in the sixties the Market Harborough to Northampton line came into consideration as did (in Beeching II) new connections at Glen Blaby and Rugby with use of the GC line between those points (the junctions are located and named in the first issue of the National Route Codes Catalogue).

EML? Don't you mean WCML?

Also, as I remember, Wigston to Nuneaton and reverse was also seriously considered. In fact, I am under the impression that was the favoured option, the Harboro-Northampton line being poor from a PW point of view (not that I ever went over it).

I can't remember it ever being mentioned, but I think what should have been seriously considered was to restore the south-east curve at Tamworth, and electrify to Derby and Sheffield. Had they done that, and run fast EMUs from Leicester to Euston via Nuneaton, we'd have soon found Nuneaton to Euston was a bottleneck and had to revert to the Midland again. But we'd have some useful parts of the NE-SW route and Nuneaton to Brum electrified and read for extensions.

 

[Merle Haggard]

There were also three different schemes considered for getting into Euston. At the time of the EML electrification the idea of using the Midland line from Wigston to Rugby was tentatively considered, and in the sixties the Market Harborough to Northampton line came into consideration as did (in Beeching II) new connections at Glen Blaby and Rugby with use of the GC line between those points (the junctions are located and named in the first issue of the National Route Codes Catalogue).

Diversions via Market Harborough - Northampton did happen.
Coal traffic, particularly for the Central and SW divisions of the Southern, was re-routed that way in the late 1960s, as well as the St. Pancras - Glasgow (via the S&C and G&SW) sleeper.
As well as reducing traffic on the Southern part of the Midland main line, the freight diversion was to increase utilisation of the fleet of 200 a.c. electric locos built for what was then called the Euston - Manchester/Liverpool electrification.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Diversions via Market Harborough - Northampton did happen.
Coal traffic, particularly for the Central and SW divisions of the Southern, was re-routed that way in the late 1960s, as well as the St. Pancras - Glasgow (via the S&C and G&SW) sleeper.
As well as reducing traffic on the Southern part of the Midland main line, the freight diversion was to increase utilisation of the fleet of 200 a.c. electric locos built for what was then called the Euston - Manchester/Liverpool electrification.

Are, thanks for the EML codes - I'd forgotten those.

But surely there had been freight taking that route from before electrification? It may have been diverted over the Midland to Brent during electrification, but I feel sure I was at Northampton c 1963 and there was mineral traffic being routed into the yard at the northern end of Northampton Castle?

The sleeper diversion was just to concentrate sleeper car servicing at Wembley, surely - nothing to do with any stragegic diversion of traffic.

 

[Whistler40145]

Was Bedford Midland to Bletchley ever considered as a diversionary route?

 

[etr221]

I think that under the modernisation plan (so 1950s rather than '60s) there was a proposal for a rebuilt combined King's Cross-St Pancras station, but don't know how far it got, or any details. The LMSR (pre-war) had plans to divert Midland services into a rebuilt Euston.

While I imagine over the years pretty well every possibility was looked at, I always understood that via Market Harborough-Northampton was for a long while the front runner.

 

[RT4038]

Unfortunately (or possibly fortunately!) the Market Harborough-Northampton had two sets of single bore double line tunnels, with very narrow clearance, which would have made electrification difficult, and the passenger stock of the time requiring bars on the droplights [irony is that would not matter now]. There were also numerous level crossings, including one over the busy A508 road at Lamport Station, and another over the A50 road south of Pitsford and Brampton Station, both of which would require bridges constructing if fast, frequent trans were to become a feature.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The destruction of the Euston Arch, was in many ways the vaccine that mobilised people against the destruction of masterpieces such as St Pancras.

Not a bad one to sacrifice - it was a carbuncle (and in the way of extending the platforms).

I agree with Bletchleyite. Easton Arch was not a big loss.

 

[Whistler40145]

I agree with Bletchleyite. Easton Arch was not a big loss.

It was a godsend that London Euston was rebuilt

 

[70014IronDuke]

Was Bedford Midland to Bletchley ever considered as a diversionary route?

No, surely not. OK for diversions back in the day, but not on a regular scheduled basis.

You would have a mere 47 miles of electric haulage, then a 16 mile trundle across country at 60 mph, and winding contortions from St Johns to Bedford Midland (even if rebuilt to a higher standard) then to head north again. Complete non-starter.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It was a godsend that London Euston was rebuilt

Indeed. Nostalgia stands in the way of progress.

 

[yorksrob]

I agree with Bletchleyite. Easton Arch was not a big loss.

I think it would have been a nice addition in front of the modern station. But the old station itself needed to go.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Are, thanks for the EML codes - I'd forgotten those.

But surely there had been freight taking that route from before electrification? It may have been diverted over the Midland to Brent during electrification, but I feel sure I was at Northampton c 1963 and there was mineral traffic being routed into the yard at the northern end of Northampton Castle?

The sleeper diversion was just to concentrate sleeper car servicing at Wembley, surely - nothing to do with any stragegic diversion of traffic.

Yes indeed, there was previously some Nottinghamshire - London coal traffic via Mkt Harborough - Northampton, dating back to pre-grouping, when the LNWR's access to that market was via Colwick and the LNWR and GN Joint Committee line (via John O'Gaunt). Colwick WDs clanged up to N'pton 'til that line closed, about 1962. They then ran via the new connection to the MR (I think that was put in then, might not have been 'til '66) and Trent.

I salvaged some old freight WTTS - I'll have a look at them to see if I can add any more.

And the sleeper diversion, I agree, it was as you say to concentrate resources and enable the closure of St. Pancras sleeper depot, , but the fact that this route was chosen (rather than via Nuneaton) possibly suggests some underlying policy. On the occasion of using a brake van pass to Cranford about 1967 the ops assistant at Kettering was very certain about the re-routing (and total closure Kettering - Mkt Harboro'), for what that's worth - he had an obvious interest.

 

[Journeyman]

I think it was splendid in its way - but could have been moved, as was acknowledged at the time.

I'm probably unusual in that I like the new Euston - but the Arch would have looked splendid in front of it !

I like Euston too - it's a classic example of the architecture of the time, and it's a practical and fairly user-friendly station. Given how much the WCML electrification transformed services, keeping the old station wasn't an option.

I believe the plan would have seen trains from Derby & Leicester go to Euston (via the Market Harborough-Northampton line) and Sheffield & Nottingham services to King's Cross (via Retford and Grantham respectively). Kettering & Wellingborough would have been served by an extension of the suburban service from Bedford to Moorgate (and Snow Hill line?)

Would the line north of Wellingborough have stayed open for through traffic?

 

[yorksrob]

I like Euston too - it's a classic example of the architecture of the time, and it's a practical and fairly user-friendly station. Given how much the WCML electrification transformed services, keeping the old station wasn't an option.



Would the line north of Wellingborough have stayed open for through traffic?

It is a nice concourse.

 

[Senex]

There were also three different schemes considered for getting into Euston. At the time of the EML electrification the idea of using the Midland line from Wigston to Rugby was tentatively considered, and in the sixties the Market Harborough to Northampton line came into consideration as did (in Beeching II) new connections at Glen Blaby and Rugby with use of the GC line between those points (the junctions are located and named in the first issue of the National Route Codes Catalogue).

Sorry to comment on my own post! I managed to conflate two things here. As Iron Duke says, the Beeching II proposal was indeed for running from Leicester via Nuneaton, though I'm not entirely clear whether the idea was to build a new curve or to reverse in Nuneaton station. The maps with that report shew this clearly. The scheme for restoring the WW1 connection where the South Leicestershire line crosses the Great Central line and building a new curve at Rugby came a little later, and sounds as if it must have been round about the same time as the idea of running via Northampton (and thanks to Merle Haggard for the information about the coal traffic there). The story of how the LNW got into the Nottinghamshire coalfield is a really interesting one—part of the great competition to build in East Leicestershire in the 1870s.

Just supposing the South Midland Counties line of the 1830s had been built, there would have been a very fast line from Leicester via Northampton to Euston (as the route via Rugby could have been very fast). But think of the capacity problems on the WCML and at Euston when traffic began to grow again!

I wonder if there's any record anywhere of all the notions of clsing St Pancras. I think the idea was first floated in the 1930s in connection with the planned re-building of Euston, and as we've all been discussing, it came up a number of times in BR days.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

We of course, forget that Paddington almost never happened , and there were ideas of terminating the GWR in Euston Square. Things might have been different then.

Yes - the Arch was a symbolic (but operationally useless feature - surrounded by indifferent later development) - and the Great Hall was impressive , but plagued one gathers by dry rot , and again not a great asset for the "white hot" development of 1960's Britain , when compared to new airports and motorways. Old adage of respect the past , but look forward.

 

[Whistler40145]

Another possible option would've to send services from Leicester via Stamford to Peterborough and into King's Cross

 

[Merle Haggard]

Further on the subject of freight via Mkt Harboro' - Northampton; I have a 1954 'C' which shows (excluding MO early morning oddities) 6 up trains to Northampton or Sudbury/Willesden from the 'Midland' (Toton/Knighton/Wigston) and also 6 from the LNW/GN (Colwick or Welham) so it's true that there was previously some traffic off the Midland. However, (and I still have the Roneo'd circular somewhere) the diversion of trains conveying wagons for SR (C) and SR(SW) from Brent to Sudbury was part of a plan in the late 1960s, though I can't remember whether the aim was primarily to remove traffic from the MR route, or to increase utilisation on the newly-electrified one, which then had a surplus of electric locos..