If the UK cant afford new medium/long distance rail(whether light,heavy or tram) routes, how can coaches journey time be speeded up?

[AHBD]

If the UK cant afford much new medium/long distance rail(whether light,heavy or tram) routes, how can coaches journey time be speeded up?

When I look at longer distance coach journeys say seem rather slow compared trains, much much more than a slower speed compared to cars woukd suggest, despite a motorway network.

Is it due to too much going in and out to central coach stop in intermediate cities/towns, using busy shared urban roads? In the US I think greyhound buses stop on outskirts, if done only for intermediate UK stops, that would be disliked, even if was nice rapid public transport onto which to transfer to centre.

Would more nonstop (apart from rest stops) services help?

Would a network of coach only bypasses/roads help ( just dumb two lane roads: to compete with motor vehicles surely public transport need some segregation to avoid jams, and apparently rail is to dear...?




*although touring cyclists might prefer it as avoids having to battle back out into countryside, but maybe not a big customer base..

 

[Bletchleyite]

Vehicles with a 62mph top speed will always be a bit slow even without traffic.

 

[AHBD]

Vehicles with a 62mph top speed will always be a bit slow even without traffic.

Yes but that doesnt seem to explain how much slower.

 

[telstarbox]

The Megabus direct from Sheffield Meadowhall to London used to be nippy. It was worth getting the tram out there, as it still saved time against NX who went via Chesterfield and sometimes Milton Keynes.

 

[Nottingham59]

how can coaches journey time be speeded up?

Allow coaches with rollover protection and automatically enforced use of seatbelts travel at 80mph on the motorways.

 

[JonathanH]

Allow coaches with rollover protection and automatically enforced use of seatbelts travel at 80mph on the motorways.

How are they going to handle that if the rest of the traffic flow is moving around 70mph?

 

[SynthD]

Reduce non-leisure travel. That fits into the larger issue of wfh productivity and the needs of office landlords.

Give people more help on finding a time and space efficient route. I include the bus from home to the station, ie at a discount as part of a far longer socially/eco-friendly journey. More secure bike parking. It’s not coach specific, because coaches themselves aren’t the solution. They are one of many relevant tools to be used by a smarter crowd of people moving better.

For something coach specific, it would be a cheap add on ticket for parkway to central station. This is highly variable, many towns don’t have a well placed outer station. I can think of a few that do, eg Stratford upon Avon, but only on one side.

How are they going to handle that if the rest of the traffic flow is moving around 70mph?

Ha. No, please don’t have coaches in the bmw lane.

 

[JamesT]

How are they going to handle that if the rest of the traffic flow is moving around 70mph?

Up the motorway limit for cars to 80mph too? It was suggested by a previous government they might raise the limit for motorways, vehicles have moved on quite a bit since the national speed limit was introduced in 1967.

 

[HSTEd]

Well.... guided bus(coach?)ways into and out of major urban areas would probably slash the journey time.

Be quite expensive though.

 

[AHBD]

Well.... guided bus(coach?)ways into and out of major urban areas would probably slash the journey time.

Be quite expensive though.

IS the guided bit necessary compared to a plain coach/only road which is presumably a fair bit cheaper?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes but that doesnt seem to explain how much slower.

I think it does, you're talking an average speed of probably about half (or less) that on the WCML.

 

[HSTEd]

IS the guided bit necessary compared to a plain coach/only road which is presumably a fair bit cheaper?

I doubt it will be much cheaper as most of the structural elements are the same.
The guided bit would shrink the required cross section, which is helpful in terms of fitting it into the urban landscape, however.

 

[whoosh]

Up the motorway limit for cars to 80mph too? It was suggested by a previous government they might raise the limit for motorways, vehicles have moved on quite a bit since the national speed limit was introduced in 1967.

Won't ever happen. Climate change figures.

 

[Wolfie]

Up the motorway limit for cars to 80mph too? It was suggested by a previous government they might raise the limit for motorways, vehicles have moved on quite a bit since the national speed limit was introduced in 1967.

All of the science suggests that would increase emissions. If so, precedent suggests that it would be open to probably successful legal challenge if HMG looked to do so.

 

[AHBD]

I think it does, you're talking an average speed of probably about half (or less) that on the WCML.

Yes but they much appear slower compared to other road vehicles, assuming a coach would use motorway a lot.

All of the science suggests that would increase emissions. If so, precedent suggests that it would be open to probably successful legal challenge if HMG looked to do so.

I thought the police opposed it because they thought it wiuld increase crashes?

 

[bluenoxid]

It’s both reasons. Emissions increase substantially as the engine/motor needs to overcome a significant amount of air resistance for the next 10mph added on. There are also concerns about collisions becoming worse and more frequent.

 

[Western Lord]

Bring back the BMMO C5!

 

[Wolfie]

Yes but they much appear slower compared to other road vehicles, assuming a coach would use motorway a lot.


I thought the police opposed it because they thought it wiuld increase crashes?

You do realise, l assume, that the maximum speed for coaches was reduced as a result of previous incidents?

 

[melon68]

In Ireland the coaches appear to have a speed limiter set to 100 km/h, is that an EU limit? The motorway speed limit for cars is 120 km/h, nearer 75 mph. Presumably there's not a massive jump in emissions between 70 and 75, so perhaps UK motorways could adopt the higher limit?

 

[HSTEd]

I believe there was a Monbiot article once about the idea of simply running six or more lots and lots of coaches per hour each way down every motorway.
If the coach stops were positioned at motorway junctions or very near them the average journey time wouldn't be awful - and with turn up and go frequency it wouldn't be too bad. It would also cost a relative pittance.

As for emissions, we could always just take a look at those Yutong coaches Ember uses - the range isn't amazing but its easily sufficient for many journeys on such a network.
EDIT:

Here is the article, I will go looking for the referenced economist's work.

 

[Djgr]

As traffic worsens coach journeys are only going to get longer

You do realise, l assume, that the maximum speed for coaches was reduced as a result of previous incidents?

Yes. To this day my friends call the relevant coach company, National Deathspress.

 

[Ghostbus]

Would a network of coach only bypasses/roads help

It's tempting, but probably not. Imagine the total time lost by a coach travelling up the A1 because it has to divert into Leeds city center. It isn't for changing coaches, just picking up and dropping off to make the overall route more economic. Which would reduce if it used an out of town stop. Not much of that time would be saved by using a dedicated urban expressway, assuming you could overcome the massive challenges (cost, space, politics). It I still

 

[Doctor Fegg]

You do realise, l assume, that the maximum speed for coaches was reduced as a result of previous incidents?

Though I drove up the A34 yesterday from Winchester to Oxford and there were a bunch of (Liverpool-bound) coaches keeping pace with me at not far off 70mph for the whole trip. One then went steaming past at full speed when I’d slowed down to 50mph for the Botley section…

 

[Ghostbus]

The legal speed limit for coaches under 12m is still 70mph on motorways (but not dual carriageways), but due to EU mandated speed limited set to 100mph (62mph) to cut road deaths, plus you would assume, the environmental/fuel cost, driving hours considerations, fleet flexibility, and preferring to run slow but on time, operators probably just stick to 62mph.

If it is even possible to override the limiter and the operator wants to do it, you would imagine they would only want to do so to make up time on a late running service, not reduce scheduled journey times. If my maths is right, even on a 200 mile stretch of motorway (just a bit longer than the M1), that 8mph speed advantage equates to only a 22 minute advantage. And that's the absolute maximum time saved. So that's clearly next to nothing compared to the schedule journey time needed to make extra stops or even change coaches to make the network commercially viable.

As I said, at 60mph you can do Newcastle to Bournemouth (350 miles) in 6 hours taking the most direct route. But the coach takes almost twice that, due to stopping at multiple places off the A1/M1, as well as having to go in an out of London to change coach. The London to Bournemouth coach is non-stop, but the motorway section (M3) is only 60 miles. A saving of only 6 minutes if you could do it at 70mph all the way, which by all accounts is unlikely.

As for guided busways, that's a totally unviable solution now. The footprint is small, but now you also need fences to fully segregate it due to Health and Safety, so now it has essentially become more like the effort required to install a single track railway, rather than just a high specification bi-directional roadway. Why would you even bother, just to speed up coaches (and buses) entering or leaving town, when for just a little bit more money and land use, you could have a tram line that terminates at a coachway terminal on the edge of town, right next to the inter-urban road network.

 

[AHBD]

You do realise, l assume, that the maximum speed for coaches was reduced as a result of previous incidents?

A difference of 10mph in max allowed speed doesnt seem to explain the difference.

Coaches 12m and under are allowed 70mlh on motorways in UK*

Shouldnt a reduction in mototway speed for longer coaches be a stop gap until mechanical improvements etc are brought in?

*https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-hig...-advice-for-all-drivers-and-riders-103-to-158

I believe there was a Monbiot article once about the idea of simply running six or more lots and lots of coaches per hour each way down every motorway.
If the coach stops were positioned at motorway junctions or very near them the average journey time wouldn't be awful - and with turn up and go frequency it wouldn't be too bad. It would also cost a relative pittance.

As for emissions, we could always just take a look at those Yutong coaches Ember uses - the range isn't amazing but its easily sufficient for many journeys on such a network.
EDIT:

Here is the article, I will go looking for the referenced economist's work.

That seems a good idea by economist Alan Storkey: I suspect touring cyclists might like it too, as they would be happy to skip the trip into town wishing to head for the countryside. Also,those, like me, who want to get off and walk about a bit every 2-3hours because that is their limit for sitting on a coach, might like it, if the gaps between shuttles were short enough.

Perhaps George Monbiot was the wrong messenger, it looks like an idea any political party should like: cheap, simple, fast to implement, useful?

 

[Grimsby town]

*https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-hig...-advice-for-all-drivers-and-riders-103-to-158


That seems a good idea by economist Alan Storkey: I suspect touring cyclists might like it too, as they would be happy to skip the trip into town wishing to head for the countryside. Also,those, like me, who want to get off and walk about a bit every 2-3hours because that is their limit for sitting on a coach, might like it, if the gaps between shuttles were short enough.

Perhaps George Monbiot was the wrong messenger, it looks like an idea any political party should like: cheap, simple, fast to implement, useful?

Monbiot is pretty clueless when it comes to transport despite what he may think. Thinking coaches could be an attractive alternative to flying is a good example. Most working people simply don't have the time to waste travelling 8 hours on a coach from Glasgow to London. Coaches have a lot of limitations on space. If you're adding in more leg room and spaces for bikes, and provision for disabled passengers, you're going to struggle to get more than 40 seats in a standard coach which doesn't seem overly viable without subsidy. National express already recommends that disabled passengers who need access to a toilet don't travel.

I'd also suggest that the kind of interchanges generally already exist and there's still not huge numbers of coach services. Places like Manchester Airport, Birmingham International, Trafford Centre, and Meadowhall have good onward transport connections and are close to the motorway. Most motorway junctions aren't going to have great onward public transport connections.

My feeling is that the GB rail network is too good for coach to be anything other than a marginal mode of tranport, particularly between cities. If you look at countries that have comprehensive coach networks, they tend to have poor rail and/or very extensive motorway networks. Places like the US and Ireland come to mind. Northern Ireland has Goldline but that tends to be focused on Belfast which has a Motorway network with coach lanes into the city centre. Other settlements in NI are pretty small so are easy to serve centrally. NI's rail network is pretty terrible though so not overly comparable to GB

I think there's room for more subsidised coach services in GB. I'd hope GB rail would explore integrating coach and filling gaps in the rail network with coaches in a similar manner to what SNCF or Amtrack Thruway do. Lincolnshire is a good example that has sizeable towns like Louth that have very poor connections to the rail network.

 

[AHBD]

Monbiot is pretty clueless when it comes to transport despite what he may think.

Its not his idea though, so perhaps you are supporting my idea that he was the wrong messenger for it.

Thinking coaches could be an attractive alternative to flying is a good example. Most working people simply don't have the time to waste travelling 8 hours on a coach from Glasgow to London.

But this thread is about alternatives to trains and trams...

Coaches have a lot of limitations on space. If you're adding in more leg room and spaces for bikes and...

Coaches already seem to have enough leg room compared to modern trains, and a large underfloor boot which seems better than modern trains like IEP which just squeeze passengers in expecting only their (small) bag to need stored in an overhead rack. Modern trains have limited capacity for cycles or large luggage: even a folded bike(and its luggage) is awkward unless storage near doors.

I already mentioned the suggestion might suit (some) of those who, like me, wish to spend shorter periods on the bus. I am not suggesting replacing the trains we have, which may suit others better, so if coaches reduce that load then more train passenger space is available for those who cannot cope with coach travel.

, I'd also suggest that the kind of interchanges generally already exist and there's still not huge numbers of coach services. Places like Manchester Airport, Birmingham International, Trafford Centre, and Meadowhall have good onward transport connections and are close to the motorway.

But it is not a countrywide network of shuttle coaches.

Most motorway junctions aren't going to have great onward public transport connections.

But the article specifically mentioned creating such connections and how to fund them by.....

 

[HSTEd]

Monbiot is pretty clueless when it comes to transport despite what he may think. Thinking coaches could be an attractive alternative to flying is a good example.

But the proposal doesn't really want to be an alternative to flying?
The proposal is about cars - which is the principle opponent of public transport in the UK.

Domestic flights on the island of Great Britain are not really relevant at this time in emissions terms - they will be but not for a long while yet.

Coaches have a lot of limitations on space. If you're adding in more leg room and spaces for bikes, and provision for disabled passengers, you're going to struggle to get more than 40 seats in a standard coach which doesn't seem overly viable without subsidy. National express already recommends that disabled passengers who need access to a toilet don't travel.

Some modern Yutong coaches manage more than 50 people with a wheelchair space. The Yutong T15 for example, although it would be limited to 60mph on account of its length.
As for toilets..... with the proposed service densities the passengers could just deboard at a stop, go to a toilet and reboard the next coach.

I'd also suggest that the kind of interchanges generally already exist and there's still not huge numbers of coach services. Places like Manchester Airport, Birmingham International, Trafford Centre, and Meadowhall have good onward transport connections and are close to the motorway. Most motorway junctions aren't going to have great onward public transport connections

Well in the context of this proposal, a lot of motorway junctions would either be for connections between coaches moving in different directions, or would have buses routed to them from the appropriate urban area.
If we look at the M62 as an example, most of the major settlements along its route are close enough to the motorway for urban buses to reach the junctions if required.

 

[Egg Centric]

Vehicles with a 62mph top speed will always be a bit slow even without traffic.

We don't have to keep them at 62mph of course. We could immediately get rid of the speed limiter requirement for a start now that we're in the EU, and they could do 70 on the motorway within existing law. And then we could consider full speed limit reform (removal on motorways / trunk roads, possibly lowering in town). There was a coach (Midland Red) that used to do 100mph on the M1 before speed limits were brought in (I think 100 was more of a publicity stunt thing but it certainly was going well above 62/70 as standard).

 

[markymark2000]

Vehicles with a 62mph top speed will always be a bit slow even without traffic.

But we don't have to go 62mph, that is just because of the EU.

We don't have to keep them at 62mph of course. We could immediately get rid of the speed limiter requirement for a start now that we're in the EU, and they could do 70 on the motorway within existing law

Agreed. This is something that needs to be looked at. A 540 from Manchester to London would be sped up by around 20 minutes if this was the case (time saving is only based off motorway sections and taking into account some sections of motorway will have slower speed limits anyway such as variable speed limit signs). It's not a huge saving to write home about but it is very much useful.
If more routes can be completed in under 4 hours, that would make it easier to operate more routes and reduce the need for driver changes or double manning, therefore making coaches cheaper to operate. Cheaper to operate should make more coaches viable.

Only issue is that the 70mph limit applies only to coaches which are less than 12 metres. That doesn't cover many coaches on the express coach network.

Is it due to too much going in and out to central coach stop in intermediate cities/towns, using busy shared urban roads? In the US I think greyhound buses stop on outskirts, if done only for intermediate UK stops, that would be disliked, even if was nice rapid public transport onto which to transfer to centre.

Out of town stops are controversial. Greyhound buses used to stop at random petrol stations and that wouldnt work in the UK. I don't know how people manage it in the US. Megabus used to do a lot of out of town stops, they have gone a bit more into town centres though in the past 5-10 years.

Would more nonstop (apart from rest stops) services help?

On rare occasions, a stop is useful such as Selwyn's on National Express routes scrapped the rest stop at Norton Cannes and instead out in a stop at Milton Keynes Coachway. As Selwyns has a driver depot at Milton Keynes, they are able to swap drivers there and save having a 30-45 min rest break, they have a few mins stop at Milton Keynes. NatEx did a press release on how services were sped up (though they didn't mention how they did it, but this is how)

National Express announces faster journeys between Manchester and London, with tickets from £16

The coach operator will also run an 'enhanced service; between central Manchester and Manchester Airport ahead of the school holidays

uk.news.yahoo.com