If there was no Crystal Palace?

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Sad Sprinter

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Just another alternative history thought experiment. Lets say the Crystal Palace was moved to another location-say Victoria Park in Hackey, so the West End of London and Crystal Palace Railway was never built. How would that affect the development of railways in South London? My guess is:

Without the WELCPR, the EKR would probably connect to the LBSCR at Penge and run into London Bridge.

Perhaps the LBSCR would extend with the SER, from LBG to Charing Cross.

Battersea, without the LBSCR and LCDR would have more space for housing, Balham would be less developed for much longer.


Any thoughts? I doubt the LCDR could share tracks with the LBSCR forever, perhaps a full merger with the SER?
 
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JonathanH

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This might be easier if the routes were described with locations rather than name acronyms or perhaps a map of the development of the railway in South London.

I think you are saying that Balham to Crystal Palace and Beckenham via Streatham Hill wouldn't have been built, there would have been a junction in Penge so that the line via Bromley and Herne Hill went into London Bridge and less railway land in the Stewarts Lane area.

Are you suggesting that neither the Streatham Hill or Sydenham Hill routes would have existed.
 

Sad Sprinter

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This might be easier if the routes were described with locations rather than name acronyms or perhaps a map of the development of the railway in South London.

I think you are saying that Balham to Crystal Palace and Beckenham via Streatham Hill wouldn't have been built, there would have been a junction in Penge so that the line via Bromley and Herne Hill went into London Bridge and less railway land in the Stewarts Lane area.

Are you suggesting that neither the Streatham Hill or Sydenham Hill routes would have existed.

Yes that's right.
 

30907

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Interesting question.

LBSCR - my guess is that they would have gone for an independent West End terminus using the relatively easy (tunnel-free) route via Norbury.

LCDR (ex Mid Kent and East Kent): this is difficult, as the original route through Beckenham involved the WELCP (West End of London and Crystal Palace) which was to extend to Farnborough (Kent).
I assume a railway from Lewisham to Shortlands ("Bromley" -- easy territory) would have happened under SER patronage - the question is whether the SER would have welcomed the LCDR building from Rochester Bridge to Bromley to connect. I suspect not! I also think the SER would have objected to the LCDR joining the LBSCR around Penge, as this would have gone against the SE-LBSC territorial agreement.
So what would have happened? I think the LCD would have had to build all the way to London, or give up! They would have taken a route avoiding tunnelling, so going via Peckham, either following the present Catford Loop or on a route North of Bromley from St Mary Cray via Chislehurst and Plaistow to Catford*.

This leaves the areas around West Dulwich, Streatham Hill and Gipsy Hill: the area would have developed, certainly, but what railways would have served it?

*on this second scenario, my father's family would not have moved to Shortlands, my parents would not have met and.... :)
 

Sad Sprinter

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Interesting question.

LBSCR - my guess is that they would have gone for an independent West End terminus using the relatively easy (tunnel-free) route via Norbury.

LCDR (ex Mid Kent and East Kent): this is difficult, as the original route through Beckenham involved the WELCP (West End of London and Crystal Palace) which was to extend to Farnborough (Kent).
I assume a railway from Lewisham to Shortlands ("Bromley" -- easy territory) would have happened under SER patronage - the question is whether the SER would have welcomed the LCDR building from Rochester Bridge to Bromley to connect. I suspect not! I also think the SER would have objected to the LCDR joining the LBSCR around Penge, as this would have gone against the SE-LBSC territorial agreement.
So what would have happened? I think the LCD would have had to build all the way to London, or give up! They would have taken a route avoiding tunnelling, so going via Peckham, either following the present Catford Loop or on a route North of Bromley from St Mary Cray via Chislehurst and Plaistow to Catford*.

This leaves the areas around West Dulwich, Streatham Hill and Gipsy Hill: the area would have developed, certainly, but what railways would have served it?

*on this second scenario, my father's family would not have moved to Shortlands, my parents would not have met and.... :)

Yes, I think if they had to build all the way to London, they would of had to have sold out to the SER. Although this would have been interesting as it would have led to an enormous Charing Cross and Cannon Street station-probably about twice the size. Even larger if Charing Cross became the West End terminus for the LBSCR too!
 
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