Masboroughlad
Established Member
If we leave the EU, what impact will it gave on EU countries owning UK franchises - current and future? Or will it make no difference?
Current: little to no impact. Future: depends what trade agreements are negotiated. It could make no difference, or make it impossible.If we leave the EU, what impact will it gave on EU countries owning UK franchises - current and future? Or will it make no difference?
If we leave the EU, what impact will it gave on EU countries owning UK franchises - current and future? Or will it make no difference?
It might remove the need for new rolling stock to be put out for tender?
It might remove the need for new rolling stock to be put out for tender?
why? You are still going to want to ensure best value in your commercial decisions.
Well the EU bureaucratic tendering approach, all the OJEU stuff etc, has nothing to do with that. Of course, throughout the 1970s-80s-90s there were really just two rolling stock builders to choose from, BREL and Metro-Cammell, who were pretty much negotiated with directly rather than open tender. Since then, rolling stock prices have increased by notably more than inflation, not all down to enhancement of spec (and certainly not when you look at price per seat). So what advantage has come there?Rolling stock should still be put out to tender in order to obtain a competitive price, which I don't think will change either. By obtaining at least 3 different quotes gives value for money for the taxpayer.
If they don't let it go out to tender, then it encourages companies to fleece the taxpayer.
Of course they could bring it in house but highly unlikely
Well the EU bureaucratic tendering approach, all the OJEU stuff etc, has nothing to do with that. Of course, throughout the 1970s-80s-90s there were really just two rolling stock builders to choose from, BREL and Metro-Cammell, who were pretty much negotiated with directly rather than open tender. Since then, rolling stock prices have increased by notably more than inflation, not all down to enhancement of spec (and certainly not when you look at price per seat). So what advantage has come there?
It might remove the need for new rolling stock to be put out for tender?
Probably nothing at all. EU countries don't own any franchises but if you mean non-UK companies, then it gets complicated as to what constitutes a non-UK company. For example, DB Cargo UK *is* a UK company according to UK law. I notice that DB Cargo UK owns Euro Cargo Rail - a *French* rail freight company.
If you mean "state-owned" companies running UK franchises, then it is pretty much the same above.
BUT, remember under EU law, the UK and any company in the UK is entitled to exactly the same rights as any other EU company. Whether a country takes advantage of those rights is another matter altogether. If Germany decided to invest in DB leading to the situation where DB also runs most of Europe's rail freight, then well done Germany - the UK could have done exactly the same.
Actually, which UK companies run rail services (freight, infrastructure etc) in the other EU countries?
(NB: gross simplification below!)
The way a country organises its rail system, eg: as the UK did into franchises, is purely a local decision. The EU decided (actually all 28 countries individually agreed and MEPs voted on, an MPs in each country ratified) that infrastructure should be accounted differently from rollingstock/operations to provide transparency for competition and safety.*
t.
Ian
Well the EU bureaucratic tendering approach, all the OJEU stuff etc, has nothing to do with that. Of course, throughout the 1970s-80s-90s there were really just two rolling stock builders to choose from, BREL and Metro-Cammell, who were pretty much negotiated with directly rather than open tender.
It might remove the need for new rolling stock to be put out for tender?
Maybe. It might remove the legal requirement to put it out to tender, though tendering would still be good practice to ensure good value for taxpayers and fare payers.
Leaving the EU would probably enable the government to choose British if they so wished rather than being legally required to accept the cheapest bid.
If a UK bid for new rolling stock was just slightly more expensive than say the German bid, Placing the order domestically could be justified.
For example the UK bid might be just £20 million more expensive, that could be justified if 2,000 jobs were created. 2,000 workers paying tax rather than claiming social security is a significant gain to the public purse. Remember also that the workers engaged on the contract would probably spend a fair bit in local shops, pubs, and restaurants, many which would need to engage more staff and further reduce dole queues.
Bombardier offers largely German/Swedish bits, Hitachi offers Japanese bits.
It will also help avoid nonsenses like separate series of rolling stock orders being made with incompatible couplers which cause all sorts of operational issues and expense downstream.Leaving the EU would probably enable the government to choose British if they so wished rather than being legally required to accept the cheapest bid.
Yeah yeah yeah, that's just to show the non-exec directors (and Roger F) that you have done an evaluation of the options. In most mainstream procurement operations the "feel" for who you want is made fairly early on, the rest is to show you did a thorough examination, in case it all goes pear shaped and you come under scrutiny, and also to keep the supplier's quotations screwed down so they don't think they've got you by the short-and-curlies, financially.Roger Ford's monthly column was full of his escapades in the car park at Derby
It will also help avoid nonsenses like separate series of rolling stock orders being made with incompatible couplers which cause all sorts of operational issues and expense downstream.
Yeah yeah yeah, that's just to show the non-exec directors (and Roger F) that you have done an evaluation of the options. In most mainstream procurement operations the "feel" for who you want is made fairly early on, the rest is to show you did a thorough examination, in case it all goes pear shaped and you come under scrutiny, and also to keep the supplier's quotations screwed down so they don't think they've got you by the short-and-curlies, financially.
I seem to recall that Richard Branson's initial bid from Virgin was more Hollywood glitz than boxes delivered from vans, and Uncle Roger was blown away by it all!
Actually, which UK companies run rail services (freight, infrastructure etc) in the other EU countries?
Ian
If we pulled out of the EU as far as I'm aware franchising would still continue but without the red tape
on the plus side it'd force the British Govenment to buy British.
If we pulled out of the EU as far as I'm aware franchising would still continue but without the red tape, on the plus side it'd force the British Govenment to buy British.
This is why we need Derby Works to keep open, to help keep the jobs there.
If we pulled out of the EU as far as I'm aware franchising would still continue but without the red tape, on the plus side it'd force the British Govenment to buy British.
If we pulled out of the EU as far as I'm aware franchising would still continue but without the red tape, on the plus side it'd force the British Govenment to buy British.
Nearly all the red tape is made in Whitehall - our European cousins manage their railways with a lot less complexity than we do. There is nothing in EU regulation that requires franchising to be done the way that we have. Equally, there is no guarantee that future rolling stock purchase would be British - though it would be more likely to be so.If we pulled out of the EU as far as I'm aware franchising would still continue but without the red tape, on the plus side it'd force the British Govenment to buy British.
The EU rules only apply to publicly funded tenders anyway. TOCs and Roscos can and do obtain stock by private negotiation.
This is how GWR have been able to arrange their AT300s, it wasn't an OJEU tender.
why? You are still going to want to ensure best value in your commercial decisions.