• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

If you were controlling the Reshaping of the railways, which lines would you shut or save?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
3,957
Location
Hope Valley
In passing it is worth noting that the first British automatic level crossing was only commissioned in May 1961, after the Stedeford Committee deliberations and indeed after Dr B's appointment. There was precious little real data on how much money they might save. And, as Hixon and other early accidents demonstrated the initial design and implementation was far too cheap and inadequate anyway.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
But all of that time, effort and money was to be taken up on rationalisation of the routes that were to be retained, not wasted on the no-hope quiet secondary routes.

A lot of potential measures were no or liitle cost though. Pay Train, de staffing village stations for instance. On single track lines most of the infrastructure was there to accommodate pick up goods trains once the monkey of the Railway and Canal Trafic Acts were off the back of the railway you could remove passing loops, goods yards and close signal boxes. In the short term you could lock many boxes out of use. As to diesilisation look at The worked examples and how many were already full or partworked by DMU's. Level Crossings are your £ end of the process.

Each line will be different but any line that was covering two thirds of its cost would surely be worth looking at.
 

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
4,225
If he'd investigated and costed what sort of savings could be made before the reshaping report was published, he would have been in a much better position to judge from the various studies of ticket receipts and passenger surveys exactly which lines were "no hopers" and which should have been rationalised.

Ok, this wouldn't have solved the problems of not taking into account incoming traffic and underestimating seasonal flows (those are other things that he should have done differently) but it would have helped to create a more balanced and informed view of the regional railway.

If he then went on to say that "even if this route can be made to cover it's costs, we should still divert traffic away to save money overall" then that would underline a flawed ideological position which underestimates the importance of a comprehensive network for providing a public transport system.

But he already knew. In the worked example of the York-Beverley-Hull line there were only an average of 57 passengers per train. Bearing in mind that this would not be an average of 57 passengers on the train at any one time - probably struggle to have an average of 40 at any one time. Probably a couple of peak trains with 100 and the rest with very little. A no hoper. Put the through passengers on lines that were going to be kept anyway (York-Selby-Hull) and Beverley-Hull passengers could travel on the other trains on that section. Job done.

His report was named 'The reshaping of British Railways' not 'A comprehensive network for providing a public transport system'. Even if it was, no doubt the splendid services of the East and West Yorkshire bus companies, paralleling the rail route, would have featured as an integral part of the comprehensive network of a public transport system.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,958
Location
Yorks
But he already knew. In the worked example of the York-Beverley-Hull line there were only an average of 57 passengers per train. Bearing in mind that this would not be an average of 57 passengers on the train at any one time - probably struggle to have an average of 40 at any one time. Probably a couple of peak trains with 100 and the rest with very little. A no hoper. Put the through passengers on lines that were going to be kept anyway (York-Selby-Hull) and Beverley-Hull passengers could travel on the other trains on that section. Job done.

His report was named 'The reshaping of British Railways' not 'A comprehensive network for providing a public transport system'. Even if it was, no doubt the splendid services of the East and West Yorkshire bus companies, paralleling the rail route, would have featured as an integral part of the comprehensive network of a public transport system.

He clearly didn't "already know" because there is no suggestion of how the lump of terminal and track costs could be reduced.

And you hit the nail on the head as to why he was fundamentally wrong. If you're going to have a functioning passenger transport system, you can't keep chopping bits of it off to try and find some mystical core of self contained profitable routes.
 

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
4,225
And you hit the nail on the head as to why he was fundamentally wrong. If you're going to have a functioning passenger transport system, you can't keep chopping bits of it off to try and find some mystical core of self contained profitable routes.

That does depend on the definition of a 'functioning passenger transport system'. The size of the passenger train network had been shrinking since 1930, getting faster from the mid fifties. The size of the losses incurred by running passenger trains was getting larger and larger and Government wanted this contained/reduced/eliminated. By 1963 they wanted a step change, having given the railways the chance to get profitable by investment in the '55 plan, which had failed (or not been enough, but there was no more). It was known that many lines were 'no-hopers'. So they were shut down. The only other alternative was more money from the Government, which was not going to be forthcoming. No money = no service.

I know i'm never going to convince you that making economies on quiet rural lines would not have saved them. or that the Government/Beeching in 1963 were right not to throw scarce funds subsidising empty trains then because they would have been useful in 2018. No point in blaming, because there really isn't anyone to blame. The circumstances then are completely different to now.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,958
Location
Yorks
That does depend on the definition of a 'functioning passenger transport system'. The size of the passenger train network had been shrinking since 1930, getting faster from the mid fifties. The size of the losses incurred by running passenger trains was getting larger and larger and Government wanted this contained/reduced/eliminated. By 1963 they wanted a step change, having given the railways the chance to get profitable by investment in the '55 plan, which had failed (or not been enough, but there was no more). It was known that many lines were 'no-hopers'. So they were shut down. The only other alternative was more money from the Government, which was not going to be forthcoming. No money = no service.

I know i'm never going to convince you that making economies on quiet rural lines would not have saved them. or that the Government/Beeching in 1963 were right not to throw scarce funds subsidising empty trains then because they would have been useful in 2018. No point in blaming, because there really isn't anyone to blame. The circumstances then are completely different to now.

I suppose it comes back to my point about the railway doing "what it does best" isn't necessarily the best thing for a passenger railway.

But you're correct. There's no point apportioning blame. However it is worth looking at what mistakes were made so that they aren't repeated in the future (and also what successes there were).
 

B&I

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2017
Messages
2,484
And therein lies the heart of the argument. Right from nationalisation through until at least the Transport Act 1968 the BTC and BR were expected to at least break even with no real statutory basis for either subsidy or borrowing money (even for investment).

Gareth Marston in particular has explained well how the obligations and restrictions placed on the railways were dated and inappropriate. There were other restrictions on freedom of action in terms of holding down fares/freight rates increases and also in boosting rail staff pay (following the Guillebaud investigations). These factors were down to government decisions under both main parties.

So Dr B was faced with a mixture of rising costs, falling traffic, inability to raise prices (even where this might have been commercially sustainable) and no access to further funds for investment in efficiency.

May I enquire what BR 'should' have been doing, rather than proposing a retreat from chronically loss-making activities (besides pressing on with attempts to boost the more positive prospects that I have listed on numerous previous occasions, with what little money was available)?

Could you also clarify under what statutory obligation BR 'shouldn't' have proposed closures (noting that had been going on ever since 1948)?


Did Beeching ever complain to the politicians that the conditions he was being expected to work under were impossible ? Even if the politicians were responsible for a legislative and financial context which created strog pressure for closures, BR didn't have to go along with it quite so cheerfully
 

Dr Hoo

Established Member
Joined
10 Nov 2015
Messages
3,957
Location
Hope Valley
Did Beeching ever complain to the politicians that the conditions he was being expected to work under were impossible ? Even if the politicians were responsible for a legislative and financial context which created strog pressure for closures, BR didn't have to go along with it quite so cheerfully

The opening paragraph of the Reshaping Report quotes the Prime Minister, Harold Macmillan (a former railway company director who lived near to a line that had already been closed under the British Transport Commission, as it happened):

"First the industry must be of a size and pattern suited to modern conditions and prospects. In particular, the railway system must be remodelled to meet current needs, and the modernisation plan must be adapted to this new shape."

I think that the phrase, "please do not ask for credit, as refusal often offends" springs to mind!

Beeching was successful in obtaining Ministry of Transport support for various investments, such as liner trains and terminals, Bournemouth electrification, starting merry-go-round, developing Mark II coaches and expanding the Derby Research facility. He probably thought that these were more important. He did not think that his remit or conditions were impossible as he believed that he could see a way forward, especially if road freight competition could be restricted to a more level playing field.

As noted above, he did plant the acorn of the Social Railway, at least in terms of provincial urban networks and PTEs, that Barbara Castle eventually nurtured.
 

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
4,225
Did Beeching ever complain to the politicians that the conditions he was being expected to work under were impossible ? Even if the politicians were responsible for a legislative and financial context which created strog pressure for closures, BR didn't have to go along with it quite so cheerfully

You are misunderstanding the context of the time. The modernisation money paid in 1955 had not worked in as far as sufficiently improving the railways financial position. There was no more money to come from Government. It was well known that lots of secondary and branch line trains carried fresh air. Beeching was brought in to identify them, and close them. Beeching knew what the job entailed when he took it on, and would not have thought the conditions he was expected to work under were impossible.

You seem to think that Beeching was doing some kind of impartial report into British Railways and UK transport in general. He was not. The decision to reduce the network (merely accelerating a process that had been in place for the previous 5 years) had already been taken.
 

coppercapped

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2015
Messages
3,099
Location
Reading
I have been following, and occasionally contributing to, this thread as it’s a period in history which interests me and, horror of horrors, which I lived through. It makes me feel, if not old, at least grizzled!

The hidden assumption behind the OP’s first post is that the Reshaping and the subsequent loss of so many lines was in some way inevitable; I am not sure it was - at least in the form seen - if things had happened differently. So as this is in essence a fantasy thread I thought it would be interesting to identify the points, times and events in history where I think other choices could have been made. I have addressed some of these issues in other threads and forums but I’ll try to put all the argument into one place. I know I will never convince everyone but maybe one or two others may find my ramblings of interest.

I postulate that the actual causes lay a lot further back than Dr. Beeching’s time and that the form of nationalisation chosen - not nationalisation per se - essentially froze any development of the railways’ commercial and operational sides for a dozen years at a time of huge social, technical and economic change. People think that change happens quickly now - but from the end of the War to the late sixties the speed of change was breathtaking. With a different form of organisation and different requirements placed on its direction and management the railways could have started to adapt much earlier. The chances are that as a result Dr. Beeching would have remained an ICI senior manager, unknown to the public at large.

I will say at the outset that I have no truck with the personification and vilification of some of the actors in these events. Such simplification is often due to an approach which is purely political - one could say party political - but it disguises rather than clarifies the social, political and economic issues facing the Governments of the time and especially those facing the railways. This is not to say that the actors were infallible or sometimes incompetent or crooked or were even sometimes simply the wrong person for the job - but that happens at all times and in all endeavours: the railways were no exception.

There are several intertwined factors in this story:
  • the legal framework
  • the remit and structure of the British Transport Commission (BTC)
  • the direction and management of the industry
  • technological changes
  • competitive changes
  • the public’s expectations.
Starting with the legal framework, in this context the most significant Acts setting the legal framework for the railway business are the Railway and Canal Traffic Act 1854 and the 1947 Transport Act.

Gareth Marston in his posts rightly makes much of the effects of the ‘Common Carrier’ obligation dating back to the Railway and Canal Traffic Act and the way that this bound the railways’ hands in their commercial freedom. This lasted right through to the abolition of the Common Carrier concept by the 1962 Transport Act. I hold that there were three unintended consequences of the 1854 Act:
  • the financial position of the railways was a lot weaker than it could have been as the Traffic Commissioners did not always grant the rates increases desired or in a timely manner. This became more pronounced during the time of the ‘Big Four’
  • the rates were publicised so the emerging road hauliers could easily undercut the railways
  • management accounting as known in other industries did not exist.
Road traffic in this period was also tightly controlled but ‘own account’ operators had much more freedom. By the late 1930s the railways’ financial position was becoming untenable and the ‘Big Four’ started the ‘Square Deal’ campaign to get the Common Carrier constraints eased. One can argue that it was already too late, but the campaign was anyway cut short by the outbreak of War.

After the war with the nationalisation of inland transport by the 1947 Transport Act made the Common Carrier obligation irrelevant as far as the Government was concerned as road goods and canal transport were also nationalised - whether by road, rail or canal the government carried your goods and in the great scheme of things it made no difference to the government as to which nationalised industry generated the income. There was therefore no incentive for the BTC - set up by the Act - to campaign for the abolishment of the obligation.

The nationalisation of the road haulage business by the 1947 Act had unintended consequences some years later. Carter Paterson, Pickfords, Wordie and the other road haulage companies that had been purchased by the railways before the war became the nucleus of the BTC’s Road Haulage Executive (RHE) which operated under the trading name of British Road Services (BRS). The RHE nationalised all road transport firms involved predominantly in ‘ordinary long distance carriage for hire or reward’. By the end of 1951 the RHE had acquired 3,766 businesses, with 80,212 staff and 41,265 vehicles.

There were some exceptions - operators of fleets of specialised vehicles, local haulage firms operating within a 25-mile radius (but who still needed a licence to carry on their business) and own-account operators, that is firms that operated ‘C’ licence vehicles for carrying their own goods as an adjunct to their manufacturing or trading businesses. Even my father’s delivery van - he being a master butcher and fishmonger - had a white paper disc, the size of the recently discontinued tax disc, shown in the windscreen with a large black ‘C’ on it.

In stark contrast to the nationalisation of the railways where there was no great change in the economic situation of the ‘owners’ as they were issued with Government stock as compensation, the nationalisation of the road companies turned the owners, who were frequently owner-drivers, into employees. Nationalisation therefore promptly generated nearly 4,000 dissatisfied and grumpy employees who used all the political power they could muster to get their livelihoods back.

Nationalisation also resulted in a massive increase in own-account operation by manufacturing and trading businesses that felt they could offer their customers a better or cheaper service by setting up their own transport operations. The numbers don’t lie - between 1947 and 1952 the number of own-account vehicles grew by 72%, while the numbers used by the RHE increased by only 1%. By 1952, 65% of all goods vehicles over 2 tons unladen weight were operated on ‘C’ licences, that is outside the influence of the RHE.

So by the mid-1950s nationalised road haulage was a dead duck but it had the unintended consequence of creating a large fleet of new privately owned lorries all competing for business. The two week long ASLEF strike in 1955 played straight into the hands of these companies, sundries traffic and some wagonload traffic vanished from the railways overnight - never to return.

The third harmful effect of the Common Carrier Obligation was that it effectively made any effective form of management accounting superfluous. Not having management accounts was fine - but not ideal - as long as the income from the major traffics covered all the railways’ costs and the surplus was sufficient to keep the Directors and shareholders happy. However, as soon as this cash-flow started to slide away - and the slide became faster from 1950 onwards - the railways were flying blind. They did not know which traffic was profitable, or could be profitable or was loss making as the information was missing. Putting it another way: the railways had an income stream from freight - a revenue stream of a known size. Using it to subsidise other services only works if the donor revenue stream is greater than the costs incurred in generating it, otherwise all that happens is that by trying to reduce the losses on a loss making service by shifting the cost allocation simply makes another loss making service yet more loss making. One can only cross-subsidise if the total outgoings are less than the total revenue, then the issue is just cost allocation. If the business is losing money overall, then cross-subsidy merely complicates the management accounts and conceals the true source of the losses.

Although the income for each station and freight terminal was known the movement costs of each consignment and routing were not. Even if these were known - reducing costs of operation was difficult as the railway had to carry the traffic presented. There were some practical limitations - parcels were not collected from oil refineries and day-old-chicks not loaded at coal pits but apart from that each public terminal was, in effect, general purpose, a jack-of-all-trades and master of none. The daily pick-up goods train was the logical consequence with all the costs and delays that involved.

The result of all this was that the only practical way to reduce costs was to close the local terminal or station. If it's not there, the public can’t offer traffic which otherwise had to be accepted - the railway did not have the freedom of being able to refuse some consignments (even by pricing itself out of the business) and accepting others. I fear that this method of cost reduction - used since 1854 - became ingrained in the railways’ psyche.



This is starting to get very long and I am wondering who, and how many, have reached this far. If there is any interest then I’ll do a bit more - especially to pick up on some of the more recent postings.
 

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
4,225
After the war with the nationalisation of inland transport by the 1947 Transport Act made the Common Carrier obligation irrelevant as far as the Government was concerned as road goods and canal transport were also nationalised - whether by road, rail or canal the government carried your goods and in the great scheme of things it made no difference to the government as to which nationalised industry generated the income. There was therefore no incentive for the BTC - set up by the Act - to campaign for the abolishment of the obligation.

It would not have been reasonable to release the BTC from the common carrier obligation anyway - you can't nationalise all inland transport and then start picking and choosing what you convey or at what charge!
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
I have been following, and occasionally contributing to, this thread as it’s a period in history which interests me and, horror of horrors, which I lived through. It makes me feel, if not old, at least grizzled!

The hidden assumption behind the OP’s first post is that the Reshaping and the subsequent loss of so many lines was in some way inevitable; I am not sure it was - at least in the form seen - if things had happened differently. So as this is in essence a fantasy thread I thought it would be interesting to identify the points, times and events in history where I think other choices could have been made. I have addressed some of these issues in other threads and forums but I’ll try to put all the argument into one place. I know I will never convince everyone but maybe one or two others may find my ramblings of interest.

I postulate that the actual causes lay a lot further back than Dr. Beeching’s time and that the form of nationalisation chosen - not nationalisation per se - essentially froze any development of the railways’ commercial and operational sides for a dozen years at a time of huge social, technical and economic change. People think that change happens quickly now - but from the end of the War to the late sixties the speed of change was breathtaking. With a different form of organisation and different requirements placed on its direction and management the railways could have started to adapt much earlier. The chances are that as a result Dr. Beeching would have remained an ICI senior manager, unknown to the public at large.

I will say at the outset that I have no truck with the personification and vilification of some of the actors in these events. Such simplification is often due to an approach which is purely political - one could say party political - but it disguises rather than clarifies the social, political and economic issues facing the Governments of the time and especially those facing the railways. This is not to say that the actors were infallible or sometimes incompetent or crooked or were even sometimes simply the wrong person for the job - but that happens at all times and in all endeavours: the railways were no exception.

There are several intertwined factors in this story:
  • the legal framework
  • the remit and structure of the British Transport Commission (BTC)
  • the direction and management of the industry
  • technological changes
  • competitive changes
  • the public’s expectations.
Starting with the legal framework, in this context the most significant Acts setting the legal framework for the railway business are the Railway and Canal Traffic Act 1854 and the 1947 Transport Act.

Gareth Marston in his posts rightly makes much of the effects of the ‘Common Carrier’ obligation dating back to the Railway and Canal Traffic Act and the way that this bound the railways’ hands in their commercial freedom. This lasted right through to the abolition of the Common Carrier concept by the 1962 Transport Act. I hold that there were three unintended consequences of the 1854 Act:
  • the financial position of the railways was a lot weaker than it could have been as the Traffic Commissioners did not always grant the rates increases desired or in a timely manner. This became more pronounced during the time of the ‘Big Four’
  • the rates were publicised so the emerging road hauliers could easily undercut the railways
  • management accounting as known in other industries did not exist.
Road traffic in this period was also tightly controlled but ‘own account’ operators had much more freedom. By the late 1930s the railways’ financial position was becoming untenable and the ‘Big Four’ started the ‘Square Deal’ campaign to get the Common Carrier constraints eased. One can argue that it was already too late, but the campaign was anyway cut short by the outbreak of War.

After the war with the nationalisation of inland transport by the 1947 Transport Act made the Common Carrier obligation irrelevant as far as the Government was concerned as road goods and canal transport were also nationalised - whether by road, rail or canal the government carried your goods and in the great scheme of things it made no difference to the government as to which nationalised industry generated the income. There was therefore no incentive for the BTC - set up by the Act - to campaign for the abolishment of the obligation.

The nationalisation of the road haulage business by the 1947 Act had unintended consequences some years later. Carter Paterson, Pickfords, Wordie and the other road haulage companies that had been purchased by the railways before the war became the nucleus of the BTC’s Road Haulage Executive (RHE) which operated under the trading name of British Road Services (BRS). The RHE nationalised all road transport firms involved predominantly in ‘ordinary long distance carriage for hire or reward’. By the end of 1951 the RHE had acquired 3,766 businesses, with 80,212 staff and 41,265 vehicles.

There were some exceptions - operators of fleets of specialised vehicles, local haulage firms operating within a 25-mile radius (but who still needed a licence to carry on their business) and own-account operators, that is firms that operated ‘C’ licence vehicles for carrying their own goods as an adjunct to their manufacturing or trading businesses. Even my father’s delivery van - he being a master butcher and fishmonger - had a white paper disc, the size of the recently discontinued tax disc, shown in the windscreen with a large black ‘C’ on it.

In stark contrast to the nationalisation of the railways where there was no great change in the economic situation of the ‘owners’ as they were issued with Government stock as compensation, the nationalisation of the road companies turned the owners, who were frequently owner-drivers, into employees. Nationalisation therefore promptly generated nearly 4,000 dissatisfied and grumpy employees who used all the political power they could muster to get their livelihoods back.

Nationalisation also resulted in a massive increase in own-account operation by manufacturing and trading businesses that felt they could offer their customers a better or cheaper service by setting up their own transport operations. The numbers don’t lie - between 1947 and 1952 the number of own-account vehicles grew by 72%, while the numbers used by the RHE increased by only 1%. By 1952, 65% of all goods vehicles over 2 tons unladen weight were operated on ‘C’ licences, that is outside the influence of the RHE.

So by the mid-1950s nationalised road haulage was a dead duck but it had the unintended consequence of creating a large fleet of new privately owned lorries all competing for business. The two week long ASLEF strike in 1955 played straight into the hands of these companies, sundries traffic and some wagonload traffic vanished from the railways overnight - never to return.

The third harmful effect of the Common Carrier Obligation was that it effectively made any effective form of management accounting superfluous. Not having management accounts was fine - but not ideal - as long as the income from the major traffics covered all the railways’ costs and the surplus was sufficient to keep the Directors and shareholders happy. However, as soon as this cash-flow started to slide away - and the slide became faster from 1950 onwards - the railways were flying blind. They did not know which traffic was profitable, or could be profitable or was loss making as the information was missing. Putting it another way: the railways had an income stream from freight - a revenue stream of a known size. Using it to subsidise other services only works if the donor revenue stream is greater than the costs incurred in generating it, otherwise all that happens is that by trying to reduce the losses on a loss making service by shifting the cost allocation simply makes another loss making service yet more loss making. One can only cross-subsidise if the total outgoings are less than the total revenue, then the issue is just cost allocation. If the business is losing money overall, then cross-subsidy merely complicates the management accounts and conceals the true source of the losses.

Although the income for each station and freight terminal was known the movement costs of each consignment and routing were not. Even if these were known - reducing costs of operation was difficult as the railway had to carry the traffic presented. There were some practical limitations - parcels were not collected from oil refineries and day-old-chicks not loaded at coal pits but apart from that each public terminal was, in effect, general purpose, a jack-of-all-trades and master of none. The daily pick-up goods train was the logical consequence with all the costs and delays that involved.

The result of all this was that the only practical way to reduce costs was to close the local terminal or station. If it's not there, the public can’t offer traffic which otherwise had to be accepted - the railway did not have the freedom of being able to refuse some consignments (even by pricing itself out of the business) and accepting others. I fear that this method of cost reduction - used since 1854 - became ingrained in the railways’ psyche.



This is starting to get very long and I am wondering who, and how many, have reached this far. If there is any interest then I’ll do a bit more - especially to pick up on some of the more recent postings.

The big lesson from all this is that if you use legislation to force an industry to become an unpaid tool of Macro Economic policy (which is what the Railway and Canal Traffic Acts were all about) then it will end in tears at some point. Governments had their cake and ate it for about 75-80 years and then the warning signs appeared in the 1930's whether a different outcome would have occurred without World War Two and Nationalization we don't know.

The three big Tory led (Labour kept trying the same policy's (2 & 3) they inherited you can argue) attempts "to make the railway pay" in the latter half of the 20th Century all ended in tears due to inherent flaws in the thinking.

1954 Rail Modernization Plan - Marshaling Yards and trip diesel locomotives and the money spent on them was all signed off by the Conservatives who expected a world of Victorian common carrier legislation to continue in a changing post war world. A chronic piece of policy failure that failed to look ahead to the future.

1963 Rail Re-shaping Report - the hunt for the mythical profitable core after a century plus of financial damage was akin to calling the Fire Brigade after the building was well ablaze. Accepting that you either had no railway or some form of subsidized railway like on the continent was the way forward eventually adopted.

1993 Railways Act - John Majors "deeply inefficient British Rail" turned out to be arguably more efficient, cost effective and less complained about than what replaced it. The Conservatives put ideology and a fear that Labour would come in and reverse it all ahead of clear thinking and adopted an experimental fragmented model whihc we still suffer with 25 years on.
 

Railwaysceptic

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2017
Messages
1,409
I have been following, and occasionally contributing to, this thread as it’s a period in history which interests me and, horror of horrors, which I lived through. It makes me feel, if not old, at least grizzled!

The hidden assumption behind the OP’s first post is that the Reshaping and the subsequent loss of so many lines was in some way inevitable; I am not sure it was - at least in the form seen - if things had happened differently. So as this is in essence a fantasy thread I thought it would be interesting to identify the points, times and events in history where I think other choices could have been made. I have addressed some of these issues in other threads and forums but I’ll try to put all the argument into one place. I know I will never convince everyone but maybe one or two others may find my ramblings of interest.

I postulate that the actual causes lay a lot further back than Dr. Beeching’s time and that the form of nationalisation chosen - not nationalisation per se - essentially froze any development of the railways’ commercial and operational sides for a dozen years at a time of huge social, technical and economic change. People think that change happens quickly now - but from the end of the War to the late sixties the speed of change was breathtaking. With a different form of organisation and different requirements placed on its direction and management the railways could have started to adapt much earlier. The chances are that as a result Dr. Beeching would have remained an ICI senior manager, unknown to the public at large.

I will say at the outset that I have no truck with the personification and vilification of some of the actors in these events. Such simplification is often due to an approach which is purely political - one could say party political - but it disguises rather than clarifies the social, political and economic issues facing the Governments of the time and especially those facing the railways. This is not to say that the actors were infallible or sometimes incompetent or crooked or were even sometimes simply the wrong person for the job - but that happens at all times and in all endeavours: the railways were no exception.

There are several intertwined factors in this story:
  • the legal framework
  • the remit and structure of the British Transport Commission (BTC)
  • the direction and management of the industry
  • technological changes
  • competitive changes
  • the public’s expectations.
Starting with the legal framework, in this context the most significant Acts setting the legal framework for the railway business are the Railway and Canal Traffic Act 1854 and the 1947 Transport Act.

Gareth Marston in his posts rightly makes much of the effects of the ‘Common Carrier’ obligation dating back to the Railway and Canal Traffic Act and the way that this bound the railways’ hands in their commercial freedom. This lasted right through to the abolition of the Common Carrier concept by the 1962 Transport Act. I hold that there were three unintended consequences of the 1854 Act:
  • the financial position of the railways was a lot weaker than it could have been as the Traffic Commissioners did not always grant the rates increases desired or in a timely manner. This became more pronounced during the time of the ‘Big Four’
  • the rates were publicised so the emerging road hauliers could easily undercut the railways
  • management accounting as known in other industries did not exist.
Road traffic in this period was also tightly controlled but ‘own account’ operators had much more freedom. By the late 1930s the railways’ financial position was becoming untenable and the ‘Big Four’ started the ‘Square Deal’ campaign to get the Common Carrier constraints eased. One can argue that it was already too late, but the campaign was anyway cut short by the outbreak of War.

After the war with the nationalisation of inland transport by the 1947 Transport Act made the Common Carrier obligation irrelevant as far as the Government was concerned as road goods and canal transport were also nationalised - whether by road, rail or canal the government carried your goods and in the great scheme of things it made no difference to the government as to which nationalised industry generated the income. There was therefore no incentive for the BTC - set up by the Act - to campaign for the abolishment of the obligation.

The nationalisation of the road haulage business by the 1947 Act had unintended consequences some years later. Carter Paterson, Pickfords, Wordie and the other road haulage companies that had been purchased by the railways before the war became the nucleus of the BTC’s Road Haulage Executive (RHE) which operated under the trading name of British Road Services (BRS). The RHE nationalised all road transport firms involved predominantly in ‘ordinary long distance carriage for hire or reward’. By the end of 1951 the RHE had acquired 3,766 businesses, with 80,212 staff and 41,265 vehicles.

There were some exceptions - operators of fleets of specialised vehicles, local haulage firms operating within a 25-mile radius (but who still needed a licence to carry on their business) and own-account operators, that is firms that operated ‘C’ licence vehicles for carrying their own goods as an adjunct to their manufacturing or trading businesses. Even my father’s delivery van - he being a master butcher and fishmonger - had a white paper disc, the size of the recently discontinued tax disc, shown in the windscreen with a large black ‘C’ on it.

In stark contrast to the nationalisation of the railways where there was no great change in the economic situation of the ‘owners’ as they were issued with Government stock as compensation, the nationalisation of the road companies turned the owners, who were frequently owner-drivers, into employees. Nationalisation therefore promptly generated nearly 4,000 dissatisfied and grumpy employees who used all the political power they could muster to get their livelihoods back.

Nationalisation also resulted in a massive increase in own-account operation by manufacturing and trading businesses that felt they could offer their customers a better or cheaper service by setting up their own transport operations. The numbers don’t lie - between 1947 and 1952 the number of own-account vehicles grew by 72%, while the numbers used by the RHE increased by only 1%. By 1952, 65% of all goods vehicles over 2 tons unladen weight were operated on ‘C’ licences, that is outside the influence of the RHE.

So by the mid-1950s nationalised road haulage was a dead duck but it had the unintended consequence of creating a large fleet of new privately owned lorries all competing for business. The two week long ASLEF strike in 1955 played straight into the hands of these companies, sundries traffic and some wagonload traffic vanished from the railways overnight - never to return.

The third harmful effect of the Common Carrier Obligation was that it effectively made any effective form of management accounting superfluous. Not having management accounts was fine - but not ideal - as long as the income from the major traffics covered all the railways’ costs and the surplus was sufficient to keep the Directors and shareholders happy. However, as soon as this cash-flow started to slide away - and the slide became faster from 1950 onwards - the railways were flying blind. They did not know which traffic was profitable, or could be profitable or was loss making as the information was missing. Putting it another way: the railways had an income stream from freight - a revenue stream of a known size. Using it to subsidise other services only works if the donor revenue stream is greater than the costs incurred in generating it, otherwise all that happens is that by trying to reduce the losses on a loss making service by shifting the cost allocation simply makes another loss making service yet more loss making. One can only cross-subsidise if the total outgoings are less than the total revenue, then the issue is just cost allocation. If the business is losing money overall, then cross-subsidy merely complicates the management accounts and conceals the true source of the losses.

Although the income for each station and freight terminal was known the movement costs of each consignment and routing were not. Even if these were known - reducing costs of operation was difficult as the railway had to carry the traffic presented. There were some practical limitations - parcels were not collected from oil refineries and day-old-chicks not loaded at coal pits but apart from that each public terminal was, in effect, general purpose, a jack-of-all-trades and master of none. The daily pick-up goods train was the logical consequence with all the costs and delays that involved.

The result of all this was that the only practical way to reduce costs was to close the local terminal or station. If it's not there, the public can’t offer traffic which otherwise had to be accepted - the railway did not have the freedom of being able to refuse some consignments (even by pricing itself out of the business) and accepting others. I fear that this method of cost reduction - used since 1854 - became ingrained in the railways’ psyche.



This is starting to get very long and I am wondering who, and how many, have reached this far. If there is any interest then I’ll do a bit more - especially to pick up on some of the more recent postings.

I find it interesting. Please continue.

One small addition to your point about the sudden and huge increase in own account road vehicles: one of the comically absurd elements of the rail nationalisation was that privately owned rail wagons, most of which were in very poor condition, were also and quite unnecessarily taken into public ownership. The result was that tax-payers' money had to be handed over in exchange for this worthless junk, and the money was spent on brand new road vehicles which were then used instead of the railway! Such a clever and expensive way to lose business!
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
I find it interesting. Please continue.

One small addition to your point about the sudden and huge increase in own account road vehicles: one of the comically absurd elements of the rail nationalisation was that privately owned rail wagons, most of which were in very poor condition, were also and quite unnecessarily taken into public ownership. The result was that tax-payers' money had to be handed over in exchange for this worthless junk, and the money was spent on brand new road vehicles which were then used instead of the railway! Such a clever and expensive way to lose business!

The effect Labours compensation scheme to make smooth the railways transition to national ownership is another big factor we need to consider. "National Railway Stock" were given to shareholders of the Big 4 and by all accounts they were paying out more annually than they got from the Big 4. Henshaw quotes a figure in "The Great Railway Conspiracy" but i don't have it to hand to check at moment - if memory serves it was actually quite a significant sum compared to the annual losses being incurred.
 

coppercapped

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2015
Messages
3,099
Location
Reading
The big lesson from all this is that if you use legislation to force an industry to become an unpaid tool of Macro Economic policy (which is what the Railway and Canal Traffic Acts were all about) then it will end in tears at some point. Governments had their cake and ate it for about 75-80 years and then the warning signs appeared in the 1930's whether a different outcome would have occurred without World War Two and Nationalization we don't know.

<SNIP>
This is post event justification pure and simple.

The first steps to put Economics on the same basis as numerate subjects such as mathematics or physics didn't start until the 1920s and the terms Macro-economics and micro-economics were not coined until the mid 1930s. (Look up the life of Ragnar Frisch whose works my economics lecturer found to be seminal). The Railway and Canal Traffic Act was passed 80 years earlier - there is no linkage whatsoever.

The truth is that the Victorians were opposed to monopolies and the Railway and Canal Traffic Acts were intended to limit the abuse of the railway and canal companies of their positions as monopoly suppliers of transport services - which in any one given area they often were. By all accounts there were good reasons for the passing of this Act - people being charged excessive amounts for shipment, some customers being given preferential treatment compared to others and so on.

I find it interesting. Please continue.

One small addition to your point about the sudden and huge increase in own account road vehicles: one of the comically absurd elements of the rail nationalisation was that privately owned rail wagons, most of which were in very poor condition, were also and quite unnecessarily taken into public ownership. The result was that tax-payers' money had to be handed over in exchange for this worthless junk, and the money was spent on brand new road vehicles which were then used instead of the railway! Such a clever and expensive way to lose business!

Thank you. I'll have to do it bit by bit as it's not my day job! (Being now retired I find that I have very little spare time...!)
I take your point about the wagons...
The effect Labours compensation scheme to make smooth the railways transition to national ownership is another big factor we need to consider. "National Railway Stock" were given to shareholders of the Big 4 and by all accounts they were paying out more annually than they got from the Big 4. Henshaw quotes a figure in "The Great Railway Conspiracy" but i don't have it to hand to check at moment - if memory serves it was actually quite a significant sum compared to the annual losses being incurred.

Yes. Surprising isn't it that the nationalisation of the railways went so smoothly by bribing the owners but the same people at the same time got road haulage nationalisation so very wrong? There must be a conspiracy there somewhere.
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
This is post event justification pure and simple.

The first steps to put Economics on the same basis as numerate subjects such as mathematics or physics didn't start until the 1920s and the terms Macro-economics and micro-economics were not coined until the mid 1930s. (Look up the life of Ragnar Frisch whose works my economics lecturer found to be seminal). The Railway and Canal Traffic Act was passed 80 years earlier - there is no linkage whatsoever.

The truth is that the Victorians were opposed to monopolies and the Railway and Canal Traffic Acts were intended to limit the abuse of the railway and canal companies of their positions as monopoly suppliers of transport services - which in any one given area they often were. By all accounts there were good reasons for the passing of this Act - people being charged excessive amounts for shipment, some customers being given preferential treatment compared to others and so on.

But a lesson for future generations nonetheless about how the world changes and policy of whatever sort has to remain current and relevant. Whilst we can't criticise the Victorians and Edwardians too harshly the inter war Governments were asleep at the helm of transport policy.
 
Last edited:

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,958
Location
Yorks
You seem to think that Beeching was doing some kind of impartial report into British Railways and UK transport in general. He was not. The decision to reduce the network (merely accelerating a process that had been in place for the previous 5 years) had already been taken.

And there you've hit the nail on the head.

An impartial report into the UK transport system, or at least some sort of willingness to explore options is probably what the country needed, but Britain being Britain, the "powers that be" knew what they wanted, and they were prepared to cook the books to come up with statistics that suited. There's an article in Rail Magazine a couple of weeks ago about the eventual closure of the Hunstanton branch, which suddenly lost 80% of it's revenues because of an accounting change.

There's a definite whiff of deference around those on here defending the closure programme, assuming that because the Government of the day decided on a course of action, it must have been inevitable and the assumptions upon which that decision was based, must have been true and correct.

Unfortunately, this sort of aquiescance and lack of scrutiny eventually leads to the sort of situation that arose in 1972, when unelected civil servants decided to plot route closures behind the backs of ministers and then attempted to strong-arm journalists into not exposing them, using illegal phone taps and blackmail.
 
Last edited:

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,710
I'm going to play extreme devil's advocate here.......

What about adopting the GCML between Rugby and Nottingham as the new main line.... and closing the MML north of Bedford?
That way trains between standard midland main line destinations and london could have been operated using electric traction, at least as far as Rugby?

All it takes is a Chord in Rugby to connect the GCML and the WCML.
And it allows you to avoid a chord to utilise Nottingham Victoria instead of Midland.

The MML south of Bedford could be heavily rationalised into two track suburban railway, like the Chiltern.
 

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,754
Location
York
I'm going to play extreme devil's advocate here.......

What about adopting the GCML between Rugby and Nottingham as the new main line.... and closing the MML north of Bedford?
That way trains between standard midland main line destinations and london could have been operated using electric traction, at least as far as Rugby?

All it takes is a Chord in Rugby to connect the GCML and the WCML.
And it allows you to avoid a chord to utilise Nottingham Victoria instead of Midland.

The MML south of Bedford could be heavily rationalised into two track suburban railway, like the Chiltern.
That's a "London and ..." suggestion unless you do quite a lot more. Leicester Central had no connections to other lines, so you'd still need London Road to deal with the Birmingham-Leicester and Leicester-Peterborough lines (and the Burton line if it ever got rebuilt) and there would need to be a lot of rebuilding to make Nottingham Victoria anything other than a London station.
If you want to get midlands traffic into Euston, rebuidling the Rugby-Wigston line would do it and could provide a much better junction at Rugby than one to the GC line like that tentatively planned in BR days a long time ago (and shewn in the first National Route Code Catalogue).
One or two other bits of the former Midland I'd like to see back: Spondon Jn – Chaddesden - Derby Jn; Wath Road Jn - Goose Hill Jn; Wennington - Lancaster Green Ayre - Lancaster Castle. And two in Scotland: Float Jn - Lampits Jn; Stanley Jn - Kinaber Jn. It's all too tempting ...
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,710
That's a "London and ..." suggestion unless you do quite a lot more. Leicester Central had no connections to other lines, so you'd still need London Road to deal with the Birmingham-Leicester and Leicester-Peterborough lines (and the Burton line if it ever got rebuilt) and there would need to be a lot of rebuilding to make Nottingham Victoria anything other than a London station.

Well Victoria already had access to the lines to the East (Newark and Grantham), and there appears to have been a whole second suburban network based around the GNR/GCR - so I think you could have replaced Midland with Victoria, but it would make the system look a lot different.
 

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,754
Location
York
Well Victoria already had access to the lines to the East (Newark and Grantham), and there appears to have been a whole second suburban network based around the GNR/GCR - so I think you could have replaced Midland with Victoria, but it would make the system look a lot different.
Yes, Victoria had access to a significant network in its heyday, but all trace of the former GN and GC lines has gone except for the Grantham route now served via Netherfield Jn. So there would be an awful lot to be re-done.
I think there's an interesting underlying question. The whole of the re-shaping of the first Beeching Report was concerned with closing individual lines identified as unprofitable (perhaps because that was what a fire-fighting approach demanded by the politicians required). No thought seems to have been given at that stage to what sort of eventual system of services was desirable or what sort of infrastructure network that might need. Admittedly, some of that work was done later, for the second report, but it was done on the basis of the very pessimistic ideas of the future of rail that ruled at the time. So, for example, when the Rugby to Leicester Midland line was closed, the posters at the time advised alternative services via the GC line, and when the GC line in turn was closed, the Rugby to Nottingham section was kept for local services which, by using stations no longer served by any other traffic, offered no connections with the rest of the network. And then there was the desire to downgrade the Midland line that led to a serious proposal for a junction south of Rugby from the WCML into the GC and a junction at Whetstone from the GC into the Nuneaton-Leicester line and so back on to the Midland! Then of course the remainder of the GC line was closed. With the inestimable benefit of hindsight the lack of any sense of a future system seems most reprehensible, but hindsight is a truly wonderful thing.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,710
Yes, Victoria had access to a significant network in its heyday, but all trace of the former GN and GC lines has gone except for the Grantham route now served via Netherfield Jn. So there would be an awful lot to be re-done.

But I'm arguing that those lines should have been the ones retained, and the Midland route lines should have been the ones axed.
 

Senex

Established Member
Joined
1 Apr 2014
Messages
2,754
Location
York
But I'm arguing that those lines should have been the ones retained, and the Midland route lines should have been the ones axed.
So you'd have closed Leicester-Birmingham and Leicester-Peterborough without alternatives, also Nottingham-Lincoln, and cut Derby off from a London service? If you were to run from Euston to Rugby and then cross to the GC, you'd have run out of capacity by now because of the development of the much more intensive WCML timetable and what no doubt would have been the demands for more services of Nottingham and Sheffield. If you were to use the old GC line, it was always significantly slower than the Midland between London an Leicester and again between Nottingham and Sheffield (though of course we don't know how that section would have improved after the end of mining subsidence) and it not only ruled out serving Derby but also put Chesterfield (which is a major traffic centre on the Miudland line) on a low-speed loop. What would you have done in Sheffield? Come into Midland from the north, or used Victoria as the main station and kept Woodhead as the principal/only route for Sheffield to Manchester?
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,710
So you'd have closed Leicester-Birmingham and Leicester-Peterborough without alternatives, also Nottingham-Lincoln, and cut Derby off from a London service
Nottingham-Lincoln would have been rerouted into Victoria the same way Nottingham-Grantham was rerouted into Midland.
The two lines ran parallel for several miles, as is evidenced by the existence of Netherfield Junction

Derby would have received a London service into Friargate, by going north out of Victoria and transferring to the GCR Derbs and Staffs line at Basford North/Daybrook via the then extant flying junction. Not even any need to run out to Thorneywood, or to reverse. The Derby trains would then extend to Crewe.
Trains North from Nottingham Victoria can use the same means to rejoin the MML for the route Northwards.

If you were to run from Euston to Rugby and then cross to the GC, you'd have run out of capacity by now because of the development of the much more intensive WCML timetable and what no doubt would have been the demands for more services of Nottingham and Sheffield.
Such extra capacity could be provided where it would do the most good, by expanding the capacity of the WCML
Or by building HS2 earlier.

The overall result is still a more efficient and better railway.
The MML is surplus to requirements in the 60s, and arguably would be today.
If you were to use the old GC line, it was always significantly slower than the Midland between London an Leicester and again between Nottingham and Sheffield (though of course we don't know how that section would have improved after the end of mining subsidence)
Well London and Leicester is a dead issue because we would be routing over the electric section to Rugby, but the route between Sheffield and Nottingham would have been selected based on the benefits of the same, there is enough sphaghetti around Nottingham that connecting Victoria back to the MML is not difficult if it is required.
and it not only ruled out serving Derby
Derby would receive trains via Nottingham, en route to Crewe.
but also put Chesterfield (which is a major traffic centre on the Miudland line) on a low-speed loop. What would you have done in Sheffield? Come into Midland from the north, or used Victoria as the main station and kept Woodhead as the principal/only route for Sheffield to Manchester?

Well we can assume our route would likely follow the Midland line north of Nottingham, baring any major difficulties in rejoining the MML alignment.
The Woodhead is obviously the better route in terms of efficiency for the railway, by virtue of already being electrified. But I am well aware the social use thing will likely force the retention of Hope Valley.
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
And there you've hit the nail on the head.

An impartial report into the UK transport system, or at least some sort of willingness to explore options is probably what the country needed, but Britain being Britain, the "powers that be" knew what they wanted, and they were prepared to cook the books to come up with statistics that suited. There's an article in Rail Magazine a couple of weeks ago about the eventual closure of the Hunstanton branch, which suddenly lost 80% of it's revenues because of an accounting change.

There's a definite whiff of deference around those on here defending the closure programme, assuming that because the Government of the day decided on a course of action, it must have been inevitable and the assumptions upon which that decision was based, must have been true and correct.

Unfortunately, this sort of aquiescance and lack of scrutiny eventually leads to the sort of situation that arose in 1972, when unelected civil servants decided to plot route closures behind the backs of ministers and then attempted to strong-arm journalists into not exposing them, using illegal phone taps and blackmail.

Having worked in the private, public and third sector I've seen some things in all of them. That the civil service makes impartial decisions based on considered evaluation of all the evidence as per the civil service code is a myth what I saw was that things had to be fitted into the pre determined line to take. "Wales benefits from EU funding" many minor accounting irregularities were glossed over or project sponsors helped to bring their accounts in line after all it was a success story for politicians to proclaim the negative headline was not wanted. Once in the machinery the party line had to be followed.

Civil servants and politicians make as many good and as many bad descions as the rest of us and the bulk of in between ones there's no monopoly on being right because your Government but the culture says pretending your right is more important than being right.
 

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
4,225
And there you've hit the nail on the head.

An impartial report into the UK transport system, or at least some sort of willingness to explore options is probably what the country needed, but Britain being Britain, the "powers that be" knew what they wanted, and they were prepared to cook the books to come up with statistics that suited. There's an article in Rail Magazine a couple of weeks ago about the eventual closure of the Hunstanton branch, which suddenly lost 80% of it's revenues because of an accounting change.

There's a definite whiff of deference around those on here defending the closure programme, assuming that because the Government of the day decided on a course of action, it must have been inevitable and the assumptions upon which that decision was based, must have been true and correct.

Unfortunately, this sort of aquiescance and lack of scrutiny eventually leads to the sort of situation that arose in 1972, when unelected civil servants decided to plot route closures behind the backs of ministers and then attempted to strong-arm journalists into not exposing them, using illegal phone taps and blackmail.

You may well be right about the impartial report (if there is ever such a thing as an impartial report in reality!), but this has never happened n Britain, either before the Beeching era or since. In spite of all the tears shed about the railway closures of 50s-70s I do not get the feeling that there is now an appetite for a report or the possible expenditure consequences. Such is the way of politics.

Of course, everyone has a different take on 'facts' that they are supplied with, and draw their own conclusions. I don't go much on conspiracy theory. I do believe that the Government spent alot of money on the '55 Modernisation plan and the railway finances did not improve as hoped for. I do believe that nationalisation and the '55 ASLEF strike hardened attitudes against the railways coming anywhere close to a monopoly (or default) transport system. I do believe that this Country was in a difficult financial situation in the late 50s/early 60s, and that more money for railway modernisation was not a priority. Yes it would have been possible to retain the size of railway network if other Government expenditure was reduced. However I do believe that, at the time, the populace would not have voted for this by a long chalk. Reduction of the network at that point in time was inevitable.

I look for indicators elsewhere to see if Britain has been completely out of step, but see that many 'Western' countries have also reduced their networks to a greater or lesser degree - France in the late 30s, USA from the mid 50s (passenger) and the mid 80s (freight), Ireland in the late 50s, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany including an orgy of closures in East Germany after re-unification, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Greece, Poland ....... France is now looking again at its network.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,958
Location
Yorks
You may well be right about the impartial report (if there is ever such a thing as an impartial report in reality!), but this has never happened n Britain, either before the Beeching era or since. In spite of all the tears shed about the railway closures of 50s-70s I do not get the feeling that there is now an appetite for a report or the possible expenditure consequences. Such is the way of politics.

Of course, everyone has a different take on 'facts' that they are supplied with, and draw their own conclusions. I don't go much on conspiracy theory. I do believe that the Government spent alot of money on the '55 Modernisation plan and the railway finances did not improve as hoped for. I do believe that nationalisation and the '55 ASLEF strike hardened attitudes against the railways coming anywhere close to a monopoly (or default) transport system. I do believe that this Country was in a difficult financial situation in the late 50s/early 60s, and that more money for railway modernisation was not a priority. Yes it would have been possible to retain the size of railway network if other Government expenditure was reduced. However I do believe that, at the time, the populace would not have voted for this by a long chalk. Reduction of the network at that point in time was inevitable.

I look for indicators elsewhere to see if Britain has been completely out of step, but see that many 'Western' countries have also reduced their networks to a greater or lesser degree - France in the late 30s, USA from the mid 50s (passenger) and the mid 80s (freight), Ireland in the late 50s, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany including an orgy of closures in East Germany after re-unification, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, Greece, Poland ....... France is now looking again at its network.

I believe that the population, however naively maybe, has an expectation that those in authority should act in good faith. This would have been more the case sixty years ago than it is now. Yes, the majority of people were probably willing to believe that some closures were necessary, however they would have expected the network to be properly assessed as to their future needs, not slashed away to meet an ideological belief in cutting route miles for the sake of it. People were right to call out the flaws in the original Beeching methodology - not taking account of passenger receipts from elsewhere, not taking account of seasonal flows etc. People would also have expected the 'success' of such cuts at reducing costs to also be properly assessed.

If you don't believe in "conspiracy theories" I would recommend that you read Holding the Line, How Britain's Railways Were Saved by Faulkner and Austin, which details the repeated attempts of the 'powers that be' to destroy the railway network that we have today, and the public outcry whenever such attempts were revealed.
 

RT4038

Established Member
Joined
22 Feb 2014
Messages
4,225
I believe that the population, however naively maybe, has an expectation that those in authority should act in good faith. This would have been more the case sixty years ago than it is now. Yes, the majority of people were probably willing to believe that some closures were necessary, however they would have expected the network to be properly assessed as to their future needs, not slashed away to meet an ideological belief in cutting route miles for the sake of it. People were right to call out the flaws in the original Beeching methodology - not taking account of passenger receipts from elsewhere, not taking account of seasonal flows etc. People would also have expected the 'success' of such cuts at reducing costs to also be properly assessed.

If you don't believe in "conspiracy theories" I would recommend that you read Holding the Line, How Britain's Railways Were Saved by Faulkner and Austin, which details the repeated attempts of the 'powers that be' to destroy the railway network that we have today, and the public outcry whenever such attempts were revealed.

Really? I doubt most people cared that much at all. They weren't affected by the cuts (didn't use trains at all or not lines that closed) and aspired for the freedom of a private car. Probably shocked and upset at the grossness of the railway losses too. The 'powers that be' wanted rid of the losses that they were having to fund - the more you close the less subsidy it will take overall. No-one would want to close a profitable business - and the railways were not that at any time since the early '50s. The first real public outcry to a line closure was the S&C in the 1980s, by which time most of the closures had taken place long ago, and public opinion and the political landscape had completely changed.
 

Gareth Marston

Established Member
Joined
26 Jun 2010
Messages
6,231
Location
Newtown Montgomeryshire
I believe that the population, however naively maybe, has an expectation that those in authority should act in good faith. This would have been more the case sixty years ago than it is now. Yes, the majority of people were probably willing to believe that some closures were necessary, however they would have expected the network to be properly assessed as to their future needs, not slashed away to meet an ideological belief in cutting route miles for the sake of it. People were right to call out the flaws in the original Beeching methodology - not taking account of passenger receipts from elsewhere, not taking account of seasonal flows etc. People would also have expected the 'success' of such cuts at reducing costs to also be properly assessed.

If you don't believe in "conspiracy theories" I would recommend that you read Holding the Line, How Britain's Railways Were Saved by Faulkner and Austin, which details the repeated attempts of the 'powers that be' to destroy the railway network that we have today, and the public outcry whenever such attempts were revealed.

I wonder how much the Beeching cuts and Wilsons broken promise on stopping them damaged public trust "in the powers that be". The 60's were a time of great change in public views and attitudes and this was a fairly large event at the time.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,958
Location
Yorks
Really? I doubt most people cared that much at all. They weren't affected by the cuts (didn't use trains at all or not lines that closed) and aspired for the freedom of a private car. Probably shocked and upset at the grossness of the railway losses too. The 'powers that be' wanted rid of the losses that they were having to fund - the more you close the less subsidy it will take overall. No-one would want to close a profitable business - and the railways were not that at any time since the early '50s. The first real public outcry to a line closure was the S&C in the 1980s, by which time most of the closures had taken place long ago, and public opinion and the political landscape had completely changed.

Yes really. The expose of the 1972 Rail Policy review and the illegal activities of the state concerning it, made the national press. I presume I don't need to outline the response to the Serpell report.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top