Ilkley–Leeds via Shipley

[Smylers]

Is travelling via Shipley a permitted route for Ilkley–Leeds journeys?

We wish to make a triangular journey: Ilkley–Bradford Forster Square (which calls through Shipley), then on to Leeds (passing back through Shipley), and finally back to Ilkley, all at peak times. So I was thinking of getting:

• ticket 1: ILK–LDS return — travel ILK–SHY then break that journey
• ticket 2: SHY–BDQ return — travel SHY–BDQ

• travel BDQ–SHY, using the return portion of ticket 2
• travel SHY–LDS, continuing on the outbound portion of ticket 1, broken earlier

• travel LDS–ILK on the return portion of ticket 1

But checking the routeing guide, I can't see anything that permits ILK–LDS journeys via SHY. This surprises me, since I've done it without problem — it's even an advertised route in timetables when there's big gaps between direct ILK–LDS trains.

Ilkley's routeing point is Leeds, so page F7 of the routeing guide applies, which says “the permitted route is the shortest route or a
route which is longer by no more than 3 miles”. I'm pretty sure that going via Shipley adds more than 3 miles on to the journey (anybody know how to check?), which suggests it isn't allowed.

The only easement I can find for this route is number 94, which permits travelling LDS–ILK via SHY specifically when coming from London, so doesn't apply if you're stopping at Leeds.

The only other discussion of this I've found is Alistair Bell asking a similar question 19 years ago, but the answers aren't clear: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/uk.railway/uEGeAiVm9tE

If this isn't a permitted route, does that mean that the late-night journeys listed in the timetable are only allowed with separate LDS–SHY and SHY–ILK tickets? Thanks for your help.

 

[Romilly]

But a combination of an Ilkley-Bradford return, and a Shipley-Leeds return, should cover you (but will cost an extra £1.60 at anytime day return prices).

Edit: as regards distances, looking at tables 37 and 38 of the national rail timetable shows that Leeds-Ilkley is 16.25 miles, but Leeds-Shipley is 10.75 miles and Shipley-Ilkley is 10.75 miles, so that Leeds-Shipley-Ilkley is 5.25 miles longer than the shortest Leeds-Ilkley route.

 

[John @ home]

But a combination of an Ilkley-Bradford return, and a Shipley-Leeds return, should cover you

Will it? The OP intends to return Leeds - Ilkley direct, not via Shipley.

 

[yorkie]

Is travelling via Shipley a permitted route for Ilkley–Leeds journeys?

It is a longstanding permitted route, it was permitted under BR, and therefore it has to be permitted today (unless the DfT have given permission for the withdrawal of this route, which clearly can't be the case)

Fares have to be accepted via Shipley as notes in the timetable require passengers to change at Shipley at certain times, as you go on to mention.

But checking the routeing guide, I can't see anything that permits ILK–LDS journeys via SHY. This surprises me, since I've done it without problem — it's even an advertised route in timetables when there's big gaps between direct ILK–LDS trains.

Agreed. It is reasonable, advertised as being valid, and will be accepted unquestionably by Guards.

Some booking engines allow it.

Some don't, because it's 5.24 miles longer than the shortest route.

Those that don't are just following the rules, which ATOC needs to change to clarify that it is permitted.

Ilkley's routeing point is Leeds, so page F7 of the routeing guide applies, which says “the permitted route is the shortest route or a
route which is longer by no more than 3 miles”. I'm pretty sure that going via Shipley adds more than 3 miles on to the journey (anybody know how to check?), which suggests it isn't allowed.

It is allowed in practice and contractually, but not all booking engines will offer it.

You could contact any booking site that doesn't offer it and ask them if they can ask ATOC to introduce an "easement" and/or you could ask ATOC directly.

Hopefully someone at ATOC will read this and just do it though

If this isn't a permitted route, does that mean that the late-night journeys listed in the timetable are only allowed with separate LDS–SHY and SHY–ILK tickets? Thanks for your help.

Consumer law applies to railway ticketing and I can't see any prospect of such a conclusion being considered reasonable under consumer law.

The only possible sensible conclusion is that it is permitted, and even encouraged.

By the way, if you book the itinerary you require online, and travel in accordance with it, the fare is automatically valid under consumer law and contract law. There is no requirement to consult the Routeing Guide.

 

[Romilly]

Will it? The OP intends to return Leeds - Ilkley direct, not via Shipley.

I see what you mean: I may have misread the opening post, where the second reference to going via Shipley is not in connection with the final Leeds-Ilkley journey but in connection with the intermediate Bradford-Leeds journey.

I agree that my suggestion only works if the final Leeds-Ilkley journey is going to be via Shipley.

 

[Harpers Tate]

If travel is to be exclusively OffPeak would a DayRover cover it all, and for less (have not checked individual prices for the itineraries proposed)? £7.20 for one; £12.20 for two adults with or without up to three children.

 

[yorkie]

If travel is to be exclusively OffPeak would a DayRover cover it all, and for less (have not checked individual prices for the itineraries proposed)? £7.20 for one; £12.20 for two adults with or without up to three children.

Ilkley to Leeds is £6.60 (and Railcard/PRIV discountable, where applicable) and is contractually valid via Shipley, with itineraries available. So if no other travel is required, that would be the best fare to buy.

But yes, if there was a group travelling and/or if any further travel was required, the DayRover would be a good choice.

 

[Tetchytyke]

How many people are travelling, and will you be travelling at peak or off-peak times?

A Train Only Day Rover at £7.20 would be cheaper for off-peak travel than separate Ilkley-Leeds and Shipley-Bradford tickets (£6.60+£2.30=£8.90).

A Family Day Rover at £12.20 would be cheaper again if there's more than one adult travelling.

Just seen the peak time requirement. But travelling offpeak in one direction may still be cheaper with a Day Rover.

 

[Smylers]

It is a longstanding permitted route, it was permitted under BR, and therefore it has to be permitted today (unless the DfT have given permission for the withdrawal of this route, which clearly can't be the case)

Thanks, and for other folks' replies.

 

[Red Dragon]

Living in Ilkley I have often travelled on an ILK to LDS rtn via SHY as all the Northern staff accept this as a permitted route, even when there is a quicker and more direct train available to ILK from LDS. I don't think you'll have a problem with your suggestion.

Re the Rover - the WYMETRO Day Rover is no longer valid for travel during the afternoon peak between 4pm and 6.30pm Mon-Fri as I understand it. So the WYMETRO Day Rover is no longer a Day Rover it's a part Day Rover which is not valid between 4pm and 6.30pm.

I have written to West Yorkshire PTE asking for this Day Rover to be reinstated, but have receive neither an acknowledgement or a reply.

Any ideas how we can get the WYMETRO Day Rover reinstated from Monday to Friday ?

 

[Starmill]

Introducing an 'Anytime' version of the Day Rovers would be by far the best solution here.

 

[Red Dragon]

Introducing an 'Anytime' version of the Day Rovers would be by far the best solution here.

Absolutely - and that was exactly what I requested, and I suggested a small supplement, to cover the 4pm to 6.30pm period.

I'm not sure whether I aimed my request at the wrong department or whether it fell on deaf ears!

Any ideas where my request should be directed?

 

[ASharpe]

If you don't mind leaving Bradford via the Interchange I see no reason why should need to buy the second ticket; journey planners will offer an itinerary via Pudsey if you ask.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Any ideas how we can get the WYMETRO Day Rover reinstated from Monday to Friday ?

Probably not much, the evening peak restrictions were added at the insistence of the Department for Transport.

 

[Red Dragon]

Probably not much, the evening peak restrictions were added at the insistence of the Department for Transport.

As I recall this was to avoid paying a further subsidy to the TOC.
It had previously been done in the London area.

 

[syorksdeano]

The South Yorkshire version of the Day Rover is available to use all day and from my recollection no restrictions on the afternoon peak

Sent from my SM-T555 using Tapatalk

 

[sheff1]

The South Yorkshire version of the Day Rover is available to use all day and from my recollection no restrictions on the afternoon peak

The off peak versions were withdrawn some time ago in SY. The more expensive 'Anytime' was the only version to remain.

 

[alistairlees]

I used to live in Guiseley (this was in the 1980s!) and certainly travel via Shipley to Leeds was absolutely valid then. This was when there were rather fewer trains from Leeds to Ilkley, but there are still occasions where this is better than waiting for the next train from Leeds to Guiseley (or vice versa).

But I don't know of anything that has changed this.

 

[Deerfold]

I used to live in Guiseley (this was in the 1980s!) and certainly travel via Shipley to Leeds was absolutely valid then. This was when there were rather fewer trains from Leeds to Ilkley, but there are still occasions where this is better than waiting for the next train from Leeds to Guiseley (or vice versa).

But I don't know of anything that has changed this.

A couple of years ago I was on the a 2226 from Leeds to Skipton. We were delayed just outside Shipley by tresspassers and got there over an hour late, missing not just the train some had hoped to get to Ilkley on, but the one an hour later. The guard announced there would be a bus provided for those wanting stations to Ilkley. At this time the connection was shown in the local timetable, but since Northern took over printing local timetables from Metro last year these connections are no longer shown, making it harder to argue the validity if you should get a guard who doesn't like it.

 

[mm333]

There is an easement allowing travel via Shipley for journeys from London:

"Journeys from or via London and via Leeds to Guiseley, Menston, Burley-in-Wharfdale [sic], Ben Rhydding or Ilkley may go via Shipley. This easement applies in both directions."

 

[alistairlees]

That's good to see it still exists. It's a terrible easement though: if you are travelling from Stevenage (on the same train as someone from London) it doesn't apply to you. Norr if you have travelled from Edinburgh. I can't really see the difference. It should just be for all journeys via Leeds.