Immediate refunds when there is disruption

[crosscity]

Earlier this month I decided to nip into Birmingham to buy a christmas present. I arrived at Bournville at 9:45 but the 9:49 was cancelled. The next one (the 9:59) was 'On time'. There was a queue at the booking office, so I bought a ticket from the machine on the platform.

At 9:57 a verbal announcement informed me that the 9:59 was cancelled and the next train to New St would be the 10:19. Catching this train would not allow me time to do what I needed to do, so I abandoned the trip.

The booking clerk said he was unable to refund tickets obtained from the ticket machine, and that I must fill in a claim form to be re-imbursed by post. He provided me with a Delay Repay form and a Comments form along with pre-paid envelopes. Neither form covered my situation - I was not delayed on either the outbound or return journey because both journeys had been abandoned. I expected to be refunded the full amount I paid.

In the past a walk up fare would be refunded by the booking office immediately if disruption occured after buying the ticket and I decided to abandon the journey. There was no quibble if the request was made within 20 minutes of buying the ticket.

I filled in the comments form and sent it back with the tickets and a covering letter asking why the booking clerk could not do the refund there and then.

I received a personalised reply just before Christmas. It confirmed the refund policy, which is "that if you return your unused tickets to the point of sale (the same ticket machine that issued your ticket) within 20 minutes ... the member of staff who issued the ticket is able to offer a discretionary full refund as there is no possible way that you could have made the journey....".

Helpfully the letter pointed out that for me this was impossible as the ticket machine cannot accept tickets, so the refund has to be done at head office, and would usually incur a charge of £10 for the privilege! Furthermore: "....For any future journeys I advise you check the relevant timetables before purchasing your tickets...." (I did!).

A £1.85 rail voucher was attached. So a result after a bit of a pallaver, and what I feel is a slightly slapped wrist.

I'm wondering if anyone in the know can comment on
1) whether the 20 minute rule is enshrined in the Conditions of Travel or other documentation;
2) whether the railways accounting and IT systems could be tweaked to allow a booking office to refund a ticket bought at one of the machines at the same station; and
3) whether in the 21st century such a twenty-minute rule is fair and just.

 

[bolli]

Earlier this month I decided to nip into Birmingham to buy a christmas present. I arrived at Bournville at 9:45 but the 9:49 was cancelled. The next one (the 9:59) was 'On time'. There was a queue at the booking office, so I bought a ticket from the machine on the platform.

At 9:57 a verbal announcement informed me that the 9:59 was cancelled and the next train to New St would be the 10:19. Catching this train would not allow me time to do what I needed to do, so I abandoned the trip.

The booking clerk said he was unable to refund tickets obtained from the ticket machine, and that I must fill in a claim form to be re-imbursed by post. He provided me with a Delay Repay form and a Comments form along with pre-paid envelopes. Neither form covered my situation - I was not delayed on either the outbound or return journey because both journeys had been abandoned. I expected to be refunded the full amount I paid.

In the past a walk up fare would be refunded by the booking office immediately if disruption occured after buying the ticket and I decided to abandon the journey. There was no quibble if the request was made within 20 minutes of buying the ticket.

I filled in the comments form and sent it back with the tickets and a covering letter asking why the booking clerk could not do the refund there and then.

I received a personalised reply just before Christmas. It confirmed the refund policy, which is "that if you return your unused tickets to the point of sale (the same ticket machine that issued your ticket) within 20 minutes ... the member of staff who issued the ticket is able to offer a discretionary full refund as there is no possible way that you could have made the journey....".

Helpfully the letter pointed out that for me this was impossible as the ticket machine cannot accept tickets, so the refund has to be done at head office, and would usually incur a charge of £10 for the privilege! Furthermore: "....For any future journeys I advise you check the relevant timetables before purchasing your tickets...." (I did!).

A £1.85 rail voucher was attached. So a result after a bit of a pallaver, and what I feel is a slightly slapped wrist.

I'm wondering if anyone in the know can comment on
1) whether the 20 minute rule is enshrined in the Conditions of Travel or other documentation;
2) whether the railways accounting and IT systems could be tweaked to allow a booking office to refund a ticket bought at one of the machines at the same station; and
3) whether in the 21st century such a twenty-minute rule is fair and just.

From the CoT:
30.1 If the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel, you may return the unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee being charged.

If your train is cancelled, then you can apply for a refund, and the £10 will be waived. For tickets from a TVM, STAR mobile or other retailing system, you will have to fill out a refund form, this is red coloured and in duplicate. Passenger Accounts of the relevant TOC can then process the refund manually.

If you received anything less than a full refund, I would write back to the TOC, asking for a full refund to be made.

Regarding your questions about STAR and ticket machines, when purchased from a STAR machine, the ticket can be "Non-Issued", 20 minutes sounds like a local rule, STAR can handle up to 2 hours.

Its more than a "tweak" to make STAR non-issue from TVMs, STAR is a proprietary system, and to make substantial changes to it costs serious amounts of dosh.

 

[sheff1]

I have only twice had to get a refund due to delayed/cancelled trains. The first time was some years ago so is probably not relevant, but the second was earlier this year.

I had bought a ticket to Tunbridge Wells from the TVM at St Pancras, but only got as far as Cannon St where all trains were 'delayed'. After waiting about 45 mins, and with no sign of any movement, I took the ticket to the booking office there. After getting me to fill in some forms they credited the full amount back to my card.

I do not know which TOC staffs the booking office at Cannon St (or what system they use), but it would certainly not be EMT whose TVM I had used at St Pancras, yet the whole thing was done quickly and without quibble.

 

[TrainfanBen]

From the CoT:
30.1 If the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel, you may return the unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee being charged.

If your train is cancelled, then you can apply for a refund, and the £10 will be waived. For tickets from a TVM, STAR mobile or other retailing system, you will have to fill out a refund form, this is red coloured and in duplicate. Passenger Accounts of the relevant TOC can then process the refund manually.

If you received anything less than a full refund, I would write back to the TOC, asking for a full refund to be made.

I agree. I think the person reading the original letter did not understand the basis of the claim and has made a goodwill gesture because of the disruption, rather than honouring the terms of the ticket.

Reiterate that the refund should be for the full ticket price in cash.

 

[father_jack]

From the CoT:
30.1 If the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel, you may return the unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee being charged.

If your train is cancelled, then you can apply for a refund, and the £10 will be waived. For tickets from a TVM, STAR mobile or other retailing system, you will have to fill out a refund form, this is red coloured and in duplicate. Passenger Accounts of the relevant TOC can then process the refund manually.

If you received anything less than a full refund, I would write back to the TOC, asking for a full refund to be made.

Regarding your questions about STAR and ticket machines, when purchased from a STAR machine, the ticket can be "Non-Issued", 20 minutes sounds like a local rule, STAR can handle up to 2 hours.

Its more than a "tweak" to make STAR non-issue from TVMs, STAR is a proprietary system, and to make substantial changes to it costs serious amounts of dosh.

I can only speak for GWR that TVM tickets from the same National Location Code can be non issued through STAR. I don't see why Bournville couldn't do the same. If not the clerk should have taken it in on a pink refund form and definitely waived the £10. It would have taken 21 days for the TOC accounts department to credit your account. The pertinent point is that if your desired train is simply a minute late and you decide not to travel it is a FULL refund !

 

[janb]

The complications are differing TOCs will have different implementations of STAR, and different levels of decision making freedom delegated to staff, but the thought process should be...
a) can I non-issue this? (taking account of local rules concerning time and method of issue)
b) if no, can I refund this here and now on STAR? (taking account of whether refund function has been set up on STAR, local rules concerning decision making over waiving fees/authorisation and method of issue)
c) if no, I will complete a paper form for a full refund and send to Passenger Accounts

 

[Phil.]

Earlier this month I decided to nip into Birmingham to buy a christmas present. I arrived at Bournville at 9:45 but the 9:49 was cancelled. The next one (the 9:59) was 'On time'. There was a queue at the booking office, so I bought a ticket from the machine on the platform.

At 9:57 a verbal announcement informed me that the 9:59 was cancelled and the next train to New St would be the 10:19. Catching this train would not allow me time to do what I needed to do, so I abandoned the trip.

The booking clerk said he was unable to refund tickets obtained from the ticket machine, and that I must fill in a claim form to be re-imbursed by post. He provided me with a Delay Repay form and a Comments form along with pre-paid envelopes. Neither form covered my situation - I was not delayed on either the outbound or return journey because both journeys had been abandoned. I expected to be refunded the full amount I paid.

In the past a walk up fare would be refunded by the booking office immediately if disruption occured after buying the ticket and I decided to abandon the journey. There was no quibble if the request was made within 20 minutes of buying the ticket.

I filled in the comments form and sent it back with the tickets and a covering letter asking why the booking clerk could not do the refund there and then.

I received a personalised reply just before Christmas. It confirmed the refund policy, which is "that if you return your unused tickets to the point of sale (the same ticket machine that issued your ticket) within 20 minutes ... the member of staff who issued the ticket is able to offer a discretionary full refund as there is no possible way that you could have made the journey....".

Helpfully the letter pointed out that for me this was impossible as the ticket machine cannot accept tickets, so the refund has to be done at head office, and would usually incur a charge of £10 for the privilege! Furthermore: "....For any future journeys I advise you check the relevant timetables before purchasing your tickets...." (I did!).

A £1.85 rail voucher was attached. So a result after a bit of a pallaver, and what I feel is a slightly slapped wrist.

I'm wondering if anyone in the know can comment on
1) whether the 20 minute rule is enshrined in the Conditions of Travel or other documentation;
2) whether the railways accounting and IT systems could be tweaked to allow a booking office to refund a ticket bought at one of the machines at the same station; and
3) whether in the 21st century such a twenty-minute rule is fair and just.

Cheeky beggars!.They fail to provide a satisfactory service then want to charge you £10 to refund an unused ticket - unused because of their poor service. Then they have the cheek to tell you to check the timetable. Little wonder that many people see the railway as a rip-off. Just imagine buying a faulty item - the last in the store - taking it back for a refund to be told, "we have to send it to our head office and we're going to charge you £10 to do it".

 

[causton]

As someone who has to follow the exact same rules, that is total rubbish.

The 20 minutes rule is correct for us for a non-issue, however during disruption it can be relaxed*. Tickets from a TVM can be easily non-issued, and we have certain 'reason codes' and one is simply "Train delayed/cancelled". The ticket should have been non-issued on the spot and the money would have gone back as cash or onto the card. It is something I do almost every day without struggle with the exact same procedures and system!

Not very impressed.

*The test is "could you have made the journey in that time?" - (i.e. buy a ticket at 10:05, next train 10:45, if you come back at 10:40 it would normally still be ok as there would be no way you could have gone anywhere!)

 

[crosscity]

Thank you all for what are very interesting and constructive replies. Just to clear up one point - the voucher was for £1.85 which was the price I paid at the TVM for an Off-Peak Day Return with Senior Railcard from Bournville to Birmingham stations.

From your replies it would appear that refunds to the original card are possible, and may be invoked by the booking clerk offering the red refund form. I was not offered one, either because London Midland don't issue them or they don't stock them at Bournville, or the clerk didn't know of their existence. I have no gripe with the clerk at Bournville station - he was courteous and helpful.

Could someone explain what STAR is - is it a type of machine, or is it a system? If it's a system, would a booking office like Bournville be able to access it? Once I understand this I will reply to the letter and hope London Midland can offer a better reply.

It would have been perfectly acceptable to me to be offered the red form; even better for the booking clerk to access a system and start the refund process on my behalf. Waiting a few weeks for the refund is an irritation, but that's life in the modern world. As it happens I will receive a cashback payment of 5p from my credit card for buying the ticket, which I will be able to keep because I was refunded by voucher.

 

[causton]

The red refund form should be in plentiful supply at any London Midland ticket office.

However, it is simply not needed, as Tribute (the software used in the ticket office) can easily non-issue the ticket by just typing in the details printed on the ticket, and then you just put your card in the card reader and it goes back onto your account, simple!

(STAR is a different type of software used by other companies)

 

[35B]

In which case, it is presumably reasonable to infer that either the booking clerk was being economical with the truth, that there is an unknown to us issue with LM's procedures that works to the disadvantage of their customers, or that there is a training issue?

 

[crosscity]

In which case, it is presumably reasonable to infer that either the booking clerk was being economical with the truth, that there is an unknown to us issue with LM's procedures that works to the disadvantage of their customers, or that there is a training issue?

Yes, and these issues (except the first) are the ones I'll put to LM to try and get to the bottom of what they think is the proper process. I suspect I would get nowhere if it looked as though I was pointing the finger at a staff member.

I'll let you know how I get on.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Cheeky beggars!.They fail to provide a satisfactory service then want to charge you £10 to refund an unused ticket - unused because of their poor service. Then they have the cheek to tell you to check the timetable. Little wonder that many people see the railway as a rip-off. Just imagine buying a faulty item - the last in the store - taking it back for a refund to be told, "we have to send it to our head office and we're going to charge you £10 to do it".

You kind of reflect my two views on this:

-- It's not a case of being kind enough to "waive" the refund fee - there is NO refund fee in the first place!
-- It's not the passenger's problem to deal with inflexible accounting processes so the booking office should have refunded the cash there and then, and then dealt with the book keeping behind the scenes.

 

[bolli]

Could someone explain what STAR is - is it a type of machine, or is it a system? If it's a system, would a booking office like Bournville be able to access it? Once I understand this I will reply to the letter and hope London Midland can offer a better reply.

Station Terminal Advanced Rail-retailing machine- its the computer system that booking offices use.

 

[RJ]

The complications are differing TOCs will have different implementations of STAR, and different levels of decision making freedom delegated to staff, but the thought process should be...
a) can I non-issue this? (taking account of local rules concerning time and method of issue)
b) if no, can I refund this here and now on STAR? (taking account of whether refund function has been set up on STAR, local rules concerning decision making over waiving fees/authorisation and method of issue)
c) if no, I will complete a paper form for a full refund and send to Passenger Accounts

I go by the most favourable interpretation of what's shown in the Conditions of Travel. Regardless of which ticket issuing software is used, staff are able to issue refunds by way of a credit sundry.

 

[Haywain]

Station Terminal Advanced Rail-retailing machine- its the computer system that booking offices use.

It's the system that *some* booking offices use. Others may use one of Tribute, Fastis or Smart.

 

[Greenback]

The limitations of the ticket issuing system, the inadequacies of staff training, and inflexible policies created by management are not the customers concern. The passenger was entitled to an immediate cash refund, and for whatever reason, did not get that.

As well as a refund for the fare, in my eyes they are also entitled to a further gesture of goodwill for the inconvenience.

TOC's expect their passengers to abide by the rules or face some kind of penalty. The same applies to them. Maybe that will encourage them to sort themselves out.

 

[anme]

TOC's expect their passengers to abide by the rules or face some kind of penalty. The same applies to them. Maybe that will encourage them to sort themselves out.

How would you suggest to enforce your proposal?