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Imminent Industrial Action

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theblackwatch

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Exactly.

This is something that public sector workers seem to turn a deliberate blind eye to.

When the stock market collapses, irrespective of who is/was responsible, those with private pensions see their value maybe halve in the space of a few weeks. This also halves the potential annuity from which their pension will be calculated at retirement.

Public pensions are not subject to these unpredictabilities and disasters, in fact they are indexed linked to rise in line with inflation.

But public pensions are not plucked from thin air, they have to be paid for by the authorities despite the drop in their funds shareholding value. So who pays the shortfall?

Private company taxpayers who have already seen their own pensions halve? Or the public sector workers who are going to get the payout in the future. Sadly the public sector dont want to pay for something that was not of their doing, even though everyone else has no choice.

Equally, could it not be argued that the value of private pensions can substantially increase due to the stock markets? At the same time, a public pension won't.

There is no shareholding value when it comes to public pensions. What someone puts in today will just go into the government coffers - it won't be invested for that person's future pension. If the increase was being used to invest in that person's pension, then the view of many involved in the strike action may, I suspect, be somewhat different.
 
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ralphchadkirk

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Relevant extract from Hansard:
Millions more use their cars to go to work, and pick up the children from school. It is not a luxury for most people; it is a necessity. In the Budget I cut fuel duty by 1p. The plan was for fuel duty to be 3p higher in January and 5p higher by August next year. That would be tough for working families at a time like this, so despite all the constraints that are upon us, we are able to cancel the fuel duty increase planned for January, and fuel duty from August will be only 3p higher than it is now. Taxes on petrol will be a full 10p lower than they would have been without our action in the Budget and this autumn. Families will save £144 on filling up the average family car by the end of next year. At this tough time, we are helping where we can.
January fuel duty increase is cancelled, and the August one will only be 3p higher than now, rather than 5p.
 

Butts

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Well it's not as if we've had a referendum in the past 12 months to invite the British public to change the voting system in favour of one that is more representative of the percentage vote....


...oh wait....

Yes, are you Newport Wales or Isle of Wight - if the former how do you elect the Members of the Welsh Assembly - I suspect the same way we do for The Scottish Parliament.

A more representative system already operates outside of England.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Yes, are you Newport Wales or Isle of Wight - if the former how do you elect the Members of the Welsh Assembly - I suspect the same way we do for The Scottish Parliament.

A more representative system already operates outside of England.

Both the Scottish and Welsh Assemblies use the Addition Member System in elections.
 

Butts

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Please sort this out - the streets and shops in Falkirk are rammed today -it's more like the Saturday before x-mas.

Recession - what Recession - are they all window shopping :idea:

Is anyone manning the picket lines .......or are they all too busy buying into the capitalist dream :lol:

Went to the cinema to get away from it and it's rammed with bloody kids - is that what passes for directed study these days :roll:

Is it the same scene in the rest of the UK ?
 

AlterEgo

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I'm working today. The train was as busy as it usually is, and Birmingham seems to be normal. Unless you told me, I'd have no idea a strike was on...!
 

Butts

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I'm working today. The train was as busy as it usually is, and Birmingham seems to be normal. Unless you told me, I'd have no idea a strike was on...!

Perhaps I don't get out enough during the day normally - my College is closed but I have managed to despatch all my x-mas cards today :p
 

Mike395

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(Butts, I've merged your thread into this one - it doesnt warrant its own thread!)
 

Ferret

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I'm working today. The train was as busy as it usually is, and Birmingham seems to be normal. Unless you told me, I'd have no idea a strike was on...!


Yes, the dead giveaway I found was the kids crawling around the city instead of being in school. But then, there's always some excuse as to why they aren't in school....just add the teacher's going on strike to the long list.
 

nedchester

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It's often said that many people in the public sector do jobs that those in the private sector don't want to do. Teachers, Nurses and Social workers come to mind here.

The proviso of doing these jobs is that they would be rewarded at the end with a decent pension. That is being now being threatened.

Oh and some are saying that you have a secure job in the public sector. Has anyone noticed the redundancies that have been happening in the public sector over the past few months?

OK some in the private sector have had a hard time but this is some kind of race to the bottom. Oh and I seem to remember that some companies taking 'pension holidays' during the times of plenty. Hmmm!

The Tories view the public sector with disdain purely because it does make money (clue: it's not supposed to) but the jobs done by those in it are invaluable to society as a whole (doctors, teachers, nurses, social workers, firemen, police etc).
 

BlythPower

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And if as usual you had done your research properly, you would have known that there were two planned rises. One for January (5p) which has been cancelled and one for August which has been reduced to 3p. :roll:

I think the wrong person is wearing the hat :D

That's the BBC news website for you... :roll:
 

Tomonthetrain

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The Tories view the public sector with disdain purely because it does make money (clue: it's not supposed to) but the jobs done by those in it are invaluable to society as a whole (doctors, teachers, nurses, social workers, firemen, police etc).

Binmen, Civil Enforcement officers....
 

Greenback

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Llanelli was extremely busy this afternoon. There were kiddies everywhere, Santa's Grotty Grotto was doing a roaring trade. Must have been the busiest shopping day this year.
 

Butts

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Llanelli was extremely busy this afternoon. There were kiddies everywhere, Santa's Grotty Grotto was doing a roaring trade. Must have been the busiest shopping day this year.

Yes its an ill wind that blows nobody any good. As I mentioned earlier the cinema was packed - like the first day of an HP film.

Still I managed to see "Marilyn" and very nice she was to - the film wasn't bad either :p
 

starrymarkb

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After today I couldn't care less - All I've had at work is "Are you on Strike" - NO! Buses are not run by the government.:roll:
 

LE Greys

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So far, I've seen no sign of the strike. Most of the University staff showed up on time and lectures went ahead as normal. To me, this one is only slightly less unjustified than the BA strike over staff perks, since public sector pensions are a lot more generous than the private sector, and this just brings them into line. I'd prefer it to be the other way round, but then we can't have everything. Since I'm currently saddled with £18,000 of debt and have no way to pay it off, a cut in a generous pension really seems like nothing by comparison. Unless we consider it to just be another means by which the Baby Boomer generation is pulling up the drawbridge behind itself.

That's enough political nonsense for now.
 

Old Timer

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It's often said that many people in the public sector do jobs that those in the private sector don't want to do. Teachers, Nurses and Social workers come to mind here.

The proviso of doing these jobs is that they would be rewarded at the end with a decent pension. That is being now being threatened..
These people continually tell us it is a Vocation not a job.

With regards to cleaning, lavatory attendants, cooking, refuse collection and many other similar roles I think if you bother to look you will find that these were all roles and services that in the vast majority of cases were sold off to private enterprise during Labour's years in Government.

....Oh and some are saying that you have a secure job in the public sector. Has anyone noticed the redundancies that have been happening in the public sector over the past few months?
Firstly will you ever accept that redundancies in the public sector figured largely in Labour's plans had they won a fourth term in power. I wonder if you would have been so vocal then ?

Secondly there is only the slimmest margins between what the Coalition intend to reduce in the public sector budget against what Labour intended to do. You obviously forgot or maybe more likely chose to ignore the comment by Alistair Darling that the Labour cuts would be much deeper and wider than anything Mrs Thatcher ever did. Something to reflect on I think ?

Most "redundancies" are not Redundancies but are in effect going to result from not filling posts as they become vacant through natural wastage. Something already notified to the Trade Unions but seemingly not passed down to their members - unless of course you are are deliberately witholding this in order to make a disingenuous comment ?

OK some in the private sector have had a hard time but this is some kind of race to the bottom. Oh and I seem to remember that some companies taking 'pension holidays' during the times of plenty. Hmmm!
Again either disingenuous or more likely a demonstration of your lack of knowledge and basic research.

"Pension Holidays" came about because there is a maximum limit to how much money a member can be paid from their Pension. The booming economy inherited by Labour from the Conservatives (Chancellor Kenneth Clarke) meant that this amount would be exceeded and the pensions provider would have been in breach of the Law and Inland Revenue Regulations.

This could, and SHOULD have been altered when it became that clear that the economy was getting into trouble. During his entire "reign" Brown overestimated growth in every quarter, indeed it became a standing joke that whatever Brown forecast would fail to materialise and I am told on good authority that privately Inland Revenue officials ran their own book (bets in other words) on what the true figure would be.

Unfortunately Brown would neither recognise nor accept from others such as the IMF that the UK economy was headed for the rocks. I presume at this time Balls was too busy plotting and savaging those who were perceived as Brown's enemies to notice the massive train crash that the economy was to become.

Part of the role of the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to oversee the overall economy and the fact that there was to be a pension's crisis was being mooted in all corners. An intelligent Chancellor and one not twisted by Prime Ministerial ambition, nor blinded by an unwillingness to see what was happening to the economy, would have taken early action to prevent the situation we are now in. Instead Brown and Balls continued to privatise and borrow to spend on unaffordable schemes, and sell off our hospitals and other parts of the public sector/armed forces to the many PFI schemes which have resulted in Hospitals having brand new wards and buildings but no money with which to pay the 25/30 year lease and services costs - Hinchinbrooke anyone ? One of the first with others soon to come.

...The Tories view the public sector with disdain purely because it does make money (clue: it's not supposed to) but the jobs done by those in it are invaluable to society as a whole (doctors, teachers, nurses, social workers, firemen, police etc).
Again a totally unsubstantiated comment that completely fails to recognise the massive privatisation that has gone on within the public sector under Labour - hint PFI deals were supposed to make money for the Government but as usual Labour managed to **** that up along with everything else.

If as you suggest the Coalition Government treats these services with disdain then I am at a loss to understand why they have not only maintained but INCREASED the money being spent on these areas.


Knowing that you are a teacher I am becoming increasingly concerned at your complete inability to make a considered and balanced argument. Instead you simply regurgitate inaccurate and disingenuous leftist rubbish which is completely devoid of foundation or truth. Your claim of being £100 a month worse off in an earlier post was shown to be wildly inaccurate.

Part of the point of teaching is surely to educate young people to be able to reason for themselve, and in a debate be able produce a reasoned argument backed up by facts and proper research ? Maybe I am wrong ?
 

Butts

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If I hear one more Union Leader utter that ultimate in inane comment "were not all in this together" or it's various deritives I will go mad (or madder <D) The same applies to politicians - I bet Cameron wishes he'd never coined that phrase.

If Union Leaders criticised high pay and no constraint in areas other than banking they may have some more credibility. However they never mention the much higher paid sportsmen or celebrities who don't seem to share in the mantra of "all being in it together"

As a society if we really were all in it together we would be worrying about the people at the bottom of the pile who are unemployed, on low fixed incomes or min wage jobs where cuts to a pension that does not exist are not top of their priorities. People who have to worry about whether to heat or eat. Mothers who walk past toyshops unable to meet the expectations of their young ones.

Once this is sorted out perhaps we can begin to address the other issues.

Unfortunately the biggest failing of "were all in it together" is human greed at whatever level.

To a minimum wage worker a Tube Drivers Salary is as remote as that of a banker..... 50 grand or 5 million it makes little difference.

Unfortunately I don't feel altruism extends to most peoples pockets. Would they suffer a temporary fall in their standard of living to enable the poorest to enjoy a reasonable lifestyle,or would it would be as likely as an MP sending their child to a school they expect their constituents to use.:p
 

nedchester

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Knowing that you are a teacher I am becoming increasingly concerned at your complete inability to make a considered and balanced argument. Instead you simply regurgitate inaccurate and disingenuous leftist rubbish which is completely devoid of foundation or truth. Your claim of being £100 a month worse off in an earlier post was shown to be wildly inaccurate.

Part of the point of teaching is surely to educate young people to be able to reason for themselve, and in a debate be able produce a reasoned argument backed up by facts and proper research ? Maybe I am wrong ?

To be honest I find many of your posts on here quite offensive (you'll come back with some rubbish about not wanting to hear the truth or some such). You have me down as a supporter of Brown when he was PM. To be honest I am/was no fan of Brown so perhaps you can withdraw that one.

You have all the traits of a rapid right winger who feel he can talk down to those who don't agree with him.

You quote various figures many of which will have come from the Con/Dems own propaganda. So forgive me if I ignore those figures in the same way you ignore mine.

Still tomorrow I will start a work to rule as instructed by my union. Perhaps you'll tell me about how little teachers work and have loads of holidays and the usual claptrap which papers like the Daily Mail come out with. Maybe you should try teaching?
 

Butts

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To be honest I find many of your posts on here quite offensive (you'll come back with some rubbish about not wanting to hear the truth or some such). You have me down as a supporter of Brown when he was PM. To be honest I am/was no fan of Brown so perhaps you can withdraw that one.

You have all the traits of a rapid right winger who feel he can talk down to those who don't agree with him.

You quote various figures many of which will have come from the Con/Dems own propaganda. So forgive me if I ignore those figures in the same way you ignore mine.

Still tomorrow I will start a work to rule as instructed by my union. Perhaps you'll tell me about how little teachers work and have loads of holidays and the usual claptrap which papers like the Daily Mail come out with. Maybe you should try teaching?

Well my ex wife is the NASUWT rep at her school in the West Midlands.

According to her most people don't want to strike as they lose a day's pay hence the low turnout in most ballots.Most of them do not understand exactly what the changes will entail, the Union only see what they want to.

Her biggest problem is with the Lab Technician at her school who is patently useless but impossible to get rid of due to the archane practices within the system. It is easier to sweep it under the carpet than address the issue.

Speaking to Teachers up here the Lab technicians seem to be a "running joke" throughout the UK.

Perhaps this is an example of working practices that need to be addressed.
 

SS4

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Well my ex wife is the NASUWT rep at her school in the West Midlands.

According to her most people don't want to strike as they lose a day's pay hence the low turnout in most ballots.Most of them do not understand exactly what the changes will entail, the Union only see what they want to.

Her biggest problem is with the Lab Technician at her school who is patently useless but impossible to get rid of due to the archane practices within the system. It is easier to sweep it under the carpet than address the issue.

Speaking to Teachers up here the Lab technicians seem to be a "running joke" throughout the UK.

Perhaps this is an example of working practices that need to be addressed.

They could have voted against industrial action then. I have no sympathy for them.

Such practices do need to be addressed I agree but top down rule is not the way to go, decentralisation and giving local managers more power is better.
 

EM2

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...forgot or maybe more likely chose to ignore the comment by Alistair Darling that the Labour cuts would be much deeper and wider than anything Mrs Thatcher ever did. Something to reflect on I think ?
To be fair, OT, someone picked on a comment made by ONE Conservative MP regarding Mrs Thatcher, and you replied with something along the lines of 'you can always find one dissenting voice'. So is it fair for you to pick out one dissenting voice here?
Most "redundancies" are not Redundancies but are in effect going to result from not filling posts as they become vacant through natural wastage.
That's still vacancies that won't be filled which could be, which means the unemployment total won't fall. And it means that those that are still in the role have to work harder. We have a team of sixty-five which currently has eight vacancies (and that's without long-term sickness, which are not being recruited for. So, a workforce reduced by almost 15%, but expected to still perform all the same duties.
 

nedchester

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Well my ex wife is the NASUWT rep at her school in the West Midlands.

According to her most people don't want to strike as they lose a day's pay hence the low turnout in most ballots.Most of them do not understand exactly what the changes will entail, the Union only see what they want to.

Her biggest problem is with the Lab Technician at her school who is patently useless but impossible to get rid of due to the archane practices within the system. It is easier to sweep it under the carpet than address the issue.

Speaking to Teachers up here the Lab technicians seem to be a "running joke" throughout the UK.

Perhaps this is an example of working practices that need to be addressed.

Our (very good) lab techs (I am a Science teacher) get paid less than someone who stacks the shelves in Asda which IMHO is a disgrace. Lab technicians in industry get paid decent wages. So you know the phrase "if you pay peanuts then you'll get monkeys"

Teachers conditions are getting eroded all the time. We are getting less and less time to prepare decent lessons and more and more filling in forms and doing stuff to provide evidence for Ofsted. The NASUWT work to rule aims to redress the balance.
 

Butts

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Our (very good) lab techs (I am a Science teacher) get paid less than someone who stacks the shelves in Asda which IMHO is a disgrace. Lab technicians in industry get paid decent wages. So you know the phrase "if you pay peanuts then you'll get monkeys"

Teachers conditions are getting eroded all the time. We are getting less and less time to prepare decent lessons and more and more filling in forms and doing stuff to provide evidence for Ofsted. The NASUWT work to rule aims to redress the balance.

She is also a Science Teacher and has a classroom assistant to help her, she is also on the Board of Governors as well as being Union Rep.She was elected Union Rep as no one else wanted to do it !! She never attends any external Union Meetings and most of the staff are apathetic to the Union.

The Lab Technicians are not the only source of concern, it is common knowledge that are quite a few Teachers not up to the job who are merely TX from school to school with a good reference when they are in fact useless.
The reason again it is very diffilcult to get rid of them - they just go off sick for months at a time. I'm not suggesting all the profession are like this but obviously from her comments a significant minority.
 

nedchester

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She is also a Science Teacher and has a classroom assistant to help her, she is also on the Board of Governors as well as being Union Rep.She was elected Union Rep as no one else wanted to do it !! She never attends any external Union Meetings and most of the staff are apathetic to the Union.

The Lab Technicians are not the only source of concern, it is common knowledge that are quite a few Teachers not up to the job who are merely TX from school to school with a good reference when they are in fact useless.
The reason again it is very diffilcult to get rid of them - they just go off sick for months at a time. I'm not suggesting all the profession are like this but obviously from her comments a significant minority.

Must say that we don't have that problem in our place. Don't think there is one teacher with a long term absence. Most in Science are judged 'good' or better and we work bloody hard!

I know it is not like that everywhere but one thing I will say is that if teachers have to work into their 60s there will be a hell of a lot more 'not up to the job' (including me I would think!!)
 

Butts

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Must say that we don't have that problem in our place. Don't think there is one teacher with a long term absence. Most in Science are judged 'good' or better and we work bloody hard!

I know it is not like that everywhere but one thing I will say is that if teachers have to work into their 60s there will be a hell of a lot more 'not up to the job' (including me I would think!!)

I agree I think it was more on the arty side - oh darling I've got this most awful headache :p

Also agree with the "68" argument as well.
 
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