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Impact of Covid-19 on the TfW 769 project

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Cardiff123

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Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/transport-for-wales-769s.179770/

Modern railways latest issue says the first of gers 769s has been completed and northern should have theirs by may and tfw should get the rest during the summer
TfW to get the rest of their 769s by the summer, so they can just sit in the sidings at Canton? As @PHILIPE has said, training on the 769s cannot take place due to the 2 metre social distancing rule, which is law for all workplaces in Wales.
As it's impossible for 2 people to be at least 2 metres apart from each other in a cab, unless TfW can get an exemption from this law, 769 training cannot happen for the forseeable future. Even when 'lockdown' restrictions are lifted soon, the scientists and increasingly politicians have been very clear that ''social distancing' measures will be a part of all of our lives for up to a year, possibly longer until we get effective drugs and/or a vaccine for Covid-19.

The 769 project just seems doomed to me.
 
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Meerkat

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Surely in that case all new types of train are doomed. Is there another way training could be arranged which does not require two in the cab?
The obvious answer is to use masks, but whether that is practical for communication is debatable.
 

Cardiff123

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Surely in that case all new types of train are doomed.
Well no because a brand new train would have 30+ years of working life in it. Originally, TfW planned to have the 769s in service from the start of it's franchise in October 2018 and withdraw them by mid-2022.
 

craigybagel

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TfW to get the rest of their 769s by the summer, so they can just sit in the sidings at Canton? As @PHILIPE has said, training on the 769s cannot take place due to the 2 metre social distancing rule, which is law for all workplaces in Wales.
As it's impossible for 2 people to be at least 2 metres apart from each other in a cab, unless TfW can get an exemption from this law, 769 training cannot happen for the forseeable future. Even when 'lockdown' restrictions are lifted soon, the scientists and increasingly politicians have been very clear that ''social distancing' measures will be a part of all of our lives for up to a year, possibly longer until we get effective drugs and/or a vaccine for Covid-19.

The 769 project just seems doomed to me.

Even if the law could be exempted, no driver would agree to it - and why should they? Their wellbeing is much more important then training. And in any case - all training was cancelled before the official lockdown started.

Surely in that case all new types of train are doomed. Is there another way training could be arranged which does not require two in the cab?

Highly unlikely. Whilst a lot of the classroom based training could be done remotely (and indeed, remote training is already taking place for trainee train crew) as part of traction training there is normally some degree of actual manual handling, driving the trains with an instructor present. That can't take place at present.
 

Cardiff123

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Even if the law could be exempted, no driver would agree to it - and why should they? Their wellbeing is much more important then training. And in any case - all training was cancelled before the official lockdown started.
I agree, drivers and instructors health comes first. Even if TfW could get an exemption from the 2 metre distance law, the unions would rightly object to it.
Which is why I say the 769 project for TfW seems doomed, as it now seems impossible for training on the 769s to start anytime in the forseeable future.
 

JonathanH

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Well no because a brand new train would have 30+ years of working life in it. Originally, TfW planned to have the 769s in service from the start of it's franchise in October 2018 and withdraw them by mid-2022.

That does rather depend on the replacement stock being available in 2022. What are the options? One is to just keep running a reduced timetable so the rest of the fleet covers, another is to seek dispensation to run pacers for longer which seems implausible, the last is to cancel most of the service on the Rhymney line.

Some sort of video / intercom system must be feasible for training with the instructor travelling near to the cab rather than in it. It isn't as if the units have dual control for instruction like a car driving instructor would have.
 

southern442

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I would imagine just 2 people together in a cab, particularly if they were wearing face masks etc, would be one of the first things that you would be allowed to do, as it presents a far smaller risk than many other social activities would. So I would not be surprised if unit testing and driver training would be one of the first things to come back.
 

Bletchleyite

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Even if the law could be exempted, no driver would agree to it - and why should they? Their wellbeing is much more important then training. And in any case - all training was cancelled before the official lockdown started.

Wouldn't they? Not everyone is applying the same level of risk assessment to all this.

Provided the other person wasn't coughing their guts up and the law wasn't broken, and perhaps masks were worn, I would, for instance.
 
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I would imagine just 2 people together in a cab, particularly if they were wearing face masks etc, would be one of the first things that you would be allowed to do, as it presents a far smaller risk than many other social activities would. So I would not be surprised if unit testing and driver training would be one of the first things to come back.
I agree. We're looking at a phased removal of restrictions so driver training, with the right precautions, could be one of the first things to be allowed. We're still going to see less people travelling for the foreseeable future, which may take some of the pressure off TfW to bring the 769s in urgently.

Although the new stock will be arriving from 2022, the bulk of it will be in 2023 with some in 2024. So if the 769 can be brought in by the end of this year, they'll be used for two to three years.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes, it's certainly true that any TOC bringing in new stock or timetables, particularly if it's causing issues, have a tremendous opportunity to sort it out over the coming months here.
 

Eccles1983

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There is no law saying 2m distance is to observed.

It's recommended, but not written into legislation.

It's irrelevant anyway, the units have not been accepted by the union anyway, and won't be until a few bits get modified or even rebuilt.
 

craigybagel

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That does rather depend on the replacement stock being available in 2022. What are the options? One is to just keep running a reduced timetable so the rest of the fleet covers, another is to seek dispensation to run pacers for longer which seems implausible, the last is to cancel most of the service on the Rhymney line.

Some sort of video / intercom system must be feasible for training with the instructor travelling near to the cab rather than in it. It isn't as if the units have dual control for instruction like a car driving instructor would have.

I don't believe the 769 project is doomed necessarily myself, as something will be needed to bridge the gap to the arrival of the Starlet units. But it's going to take a while for passenger numbers to recover to the point that 769s are needed, which hopefully will provide plenty of time for 769 training to be carried out.

Wouldn't they? Not everyone is applying the same level of risk assessment to all this.

Provided the other person wasn't coughing their guts up and the law wasn't broken, and perhaps masks were worn, I would, for instance.

Good for you. But rest assured, both ASLEF and it's members are taking this issue very seriously. And you've got to ask yourself this - why would a driver risk it? What benefits are there to them personally in allowing a 2nd person in for a non emergency situation? The whole industry is pretty scared as it is, transport workers in London have been dieing; why would drivers risk their health just so some training can take place for a new fleet that isn't going to be needed any time soon?
 

Dai Corner

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I agree. We're looking at a phased removal of restrictions so driver training, with the right precautions, could be one of the first things to be allowed. We're still going to see less people travelling for the foreseeable future, which may take some of the pressure off TfW to bring the 769s in urgently.

Although the new stock will be arriving from 2022, the bulk of it will be in 2023 with some in 2024. So if the 769 can be brought in by the end of this year, they'll be used for two to three years.

The training on Cl 37's and stock was considered worthwhile for a much shorter period of use.
 

Bletchleyite

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And you've got to ask yourself this - why would a driver risk it? What benefits are there to them personally in allowing a 2nd person in for a non emergency situation?

Because it's of benefit to the company? Though the adversarial culture in the railway doesn't really allow for that, unlike those of us in private businesses.
 

craigybagel

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Because it's of benefit to the company? Though the adversarial culture in the railway doesn't really allow for that, unlike those of us in private businesses.

ASLEF, RMT and TFW have been doing a great job in working together through all of this - it's required a lot of flexibility and common sense but despite the challenges a good level of service is still being run. So please don't give me any of your adversarial culture nonsense.

If the private sector thinks it's appropriate to allow two unrelated people to be in a small space together for a lengthy period of time just so training for a fleet that isn't currently needed can take place, it makes me even more relieved that I work on the "adversarial" railway.
 

yorkie

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Even if the law could be exempted,
What law?
no driver would agree to it....


I think the people who want to live in a bubble need to face the reality

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-52369969/who-s-nabarro-we-must-learn-to-live-with-covid-19
"We have all got to learn to live with this virus, to do our business with this virus in our presence, to have social relations with this virus in our presence ....
 

craigybagel

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What law?

I was only quoting from other posters. I've no idea what the official legislation is - but in any case the current rules within TFW are that two people are only permitted to be in the cab in case of an emergency. No training nor management assessing can take place at present.


I think the people who want to live in a bubble need to face the reality

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/health-52369969/who-s-nabarro-we-must-learn-to-live-with-covid-19

Oh I do agree with you that things will have to change, we'll all need to adapt, so that we can keep what is NECESSARY going forwards. I know that plans are being looked at to be able to ease some of the cab restrictions for necessary situations - but at present, the 769s are not necessary.

Why risk the health of staff to carry out training on new stock when the existing stock is carrying around fresh air all day? Yes, we'll need to plan for the future - but at present we're supposed to be avoiding unnecessary contact, and this would definitely be unnecessary at present.
 

Bletchleyite

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Why risk the health of staff to carry out training on new stock when the existing stock is carrying around fresh air all day? Yes, we'll need to plan for the future - but at present we're supposed to be avoiding unnecessary contact, and this would definitely be unnecessary at present.

Because when more people are released, we want as much stock as possible running well and available to use to max out train lengths and avoid overcrowding, as in normal times overcrowding is an annoyance, in these times it could be literally deadly. Far more so than two people sat in a cab on opposite sides with the windows open.
 

Caaardiff

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How come aircraft are still flying when they require 2 pilots sat closer than any driver and instructor would be in a 769 cab? Commercial & cargo flights are still operating, along with cabin crew.
Buses are still moving with screens placed up.
Shops are open with screens up.
Can't the cab just be separated with temporary screens along with the relevant PPE?

The training may not be absolutely necessary, but TfW has to also think ahead for when things return to normal. Everyday life is continuing and there are ways around it. The TfW rules you state are actually pretty much enforced by the Unions. As is no single use 153 or pacer because of social distancing rules around the door control access not being separate. Unions seem to have forgotten where the doors on a 158 are though.

Just seems another case of the unions being difficult.
 

craigybagel

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How come aircraft are still flying when they require 2 pilots sat closer than any driver and instructor would be in a 769 cab? Commercial & cargo flights are still operating, along with cabin crew.
Buses are still moving with screens placed up.
Shops are open with screens up.
Can't the cab just be separated with temporary screens along with the relevant PPE?

The training may not be absolutely necessary, but TfW has to also think ahead for when things return to normal. Everyday life is continuing and there are ways around it. The TfW rules you state are actually pretty much enforced by the Unions. As is no single use 153 or pacer because of social distancing rules around the door control access not being separate. Unions seem to have forgotten where the doors on a 158 are though.

Just seems another case of the unions being difficult.
The examples you quote are if things that are NECESSARY. By your own admission, training is not absolutely NECESSARY. Under the current restrictions, we're only meant to be carrying out those things which are NECESSARY.

With regards to the 158s, again it's necessary. Some 158s are necessary to run the existing service. Guards have been briefed on the necessity of keeping the door area clear of people when they need to use the controls.

You can blame the unions all that you want, but railway staff are already risking their health everyday to provide a key service, at a time when we're all being encouraged to work from home for everybody's safety. How people think that training on a fleet that isn't needed at present counts as necessary is mine boggling, and I find it insulting that people are using this crisis as an excuse to attack the unions (not that I expect any different from certain posters), when staff are doing all they can to keep an essential service running.

Even Boris has admitted there is going to have to be a phased return to normal. It's going to be a very long time before we see the kind of crowds on trains that will warrant the extra capacity the 769s will provide. I have no doubt that as restrictions are eased, the current rules on cab occupancy will be one of the first things to be relaxed, in a safe and controlled manner. But we're not at that stage yet.
 

Cardiff123

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There is no law saying 2m distance is to observed.

It's recommended, but not written into legislation.
It's recommended guidance in England. It's law in Wales, but there are exemptions when it's impossible to maintain a 2 metre distance between employees.



Eccles1983 said:
It's irrelevant anyway, the units have not been accepted by the union anyway, and won't be until a few bits get modified or even rebuilt.

There were a few training runs before lockdown came in, then it was all cancelled.
 

Bikeman78

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That does rather depend on the replacement stock being available in 2022. What are the options? One is to just keep running a reduced timetable so the rest of the fleet covers, another is to seek dispensation to run pacers for longer which seems implausible, the last is to cancel most of the service on the Rhymney line.

Some sort of video / intercom system must be feasible for training with the instructor travelling near to the cab rather than in it. It isn't as if the units have dual control for instruction like a car driving instructor would have.
Another dispensation seems likely. Anything other than a Sunday timetable will need some Pacers to come back. It's unlikely there will be anything to replace them by the end of July.
 
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