Impact on Universities

[6862]

Goes to show that it is so important to keep as many revenue streams open as possible. That's why, for example, research students must be allowed to continue working - it's ultimately low risk for the vast majority and some factions of Universities need to be allowed to reopen as soon as possible, or everything will grind to a halt and we can expect to follow the path that Australian institutions could be forced to take.

I think the realisation that this virus is low risk for the vast majority of researchers is important in getting things open again. In the department I work(ed) in, probably 80-90 % of the building's occupants were under 35. Admittedly, many of the crucial support and maintenance staff are older, but if measures could be put in place to protect them, one would hope that the rest of us could resume work. Disappointingly it doesn't appear that my university is going to go down that route, rather it seems to be going down a route of restrictions which are so stringent they prevent us doing the work we need to do if the university is to survive in its current form.

Any University students - how well has your institution been communicating with you throughout this crisis? How functional do you think online learning would be come September? I'd be very interested to hear from different institutions. I think we could make ours work for a short time as long as as much learning in person takes place - many need access to labs and University computers for a start.

Communication from high level in my university has been frequent, but largely just empty possibilities and reassurances that they will reassess the situation in the future. Lower down the chain of command, communication has been much more useful, but I still haven't recieved anything I could say was good news or gave me any hope that the situation will improve!

 

[alxndr]

I'm studying with the Open University, so obviously not as affected as doing the vast, vast, majority of studying online is the status quo for us.
Even so, I've just heard that they're currently not accepting applications for one of the modules that I'm due to be studying next year as they're not sure on what the impacts will be on it as it has a short residential component. I'm hoping that things will be relatively normal by Spring next year, but it's surprising to see that the uncertainty stretches that far ahead.

 

[BJames]

I'm studying with the Open University, so obviously not as affected as doing the vast, vast, majority of studying online is the status quo for us.
Even so, I've just heard that they're currently not accepting applications for one of the modules that I'm due to be studying next year as they're not sure on what the impacts will be on it as it has a short residential component. I'm hoping that things will be relatively normal by Spring next year, but it's surprising to see that the uncertainty stretches that far ahead.

Thanks for this. It's interesting to learn that even the only University which is primed for online operation has some issues here too.

 

[Huntergreed]

My university had initially planned to move most of it's learning back to face-to-face teaching in September, a very small university so this would have been manageable.

I just got an email yesterday saying that they're moving most modules online and that they will be 'unable to deliver most face-to-face teaching' as the government are insisting on 2m distancing throughout the pandemic rather than being sensible and reducing to 1m, as well as stating it would be 'incredibly dangerous to move back to in person teaching', emphasising multiple times the 'danger' and 'risks' associated with the virus.

I really do think they're overstating the risk quite massively, but the fact that I am losing out on potentially a year of face to face teaching for lesser quality online content due to a massively over the top social distancing requirement rather infuriates me and I imagine the mental wellbeing of many students will deteriorate quite considerably due to this. It does seem the world has lost sight of everything else in a panic to try and stop the 'big bad virus' which has been compared by government to a wartime enemy rather than being rational and mature and considering how to best move forward and protect mental wellbeing, and prevent deaths and damage from all causes, rather than just the virus which for most students this concerns, holds literally no risk to life.

 

[43066]

My university had initially planned to move most of it's learning back to face-to-face teaching in September, a very small university so this would have been manageable.

I just got an email yesterday saying that they're moving most modules online and that they will be 'unable to deliver most face-to-face teaching' as the government are insisting on 2m distancing throughout the pandemic rather than being sensible and reducing to 1m, as well as stating it would be 'incredibly dangerous to move back to in person teaching', emphasising multiple times the 'danger' and 'risks' associated with the virus.

I really do think they're overstating the risk quite massively, but the fact that I am losing out on potentially a year of face to face teaching for lesser quality online content due to a massively over the top social distancing requirement rather infuriates me and I imagine the mental wellbeing of many students will deteriorate quite considerably due to this. It does seem the world has lost sight of everything else in a panic to try and stop the 'big bad virus' which has been compared by government to a wartime enemy rather than being rational and mature and considering how to best move forward and protect mental wellbeing, and prevent deaths and damage from all causes, rather than just the virus which for most students this concerns, holds literally no risk to life.

Absolutely ridiculous. Online tutorials are hardly the university experience you signed up for. And I bet the fees haven’t been reduced any?!

Depending on how far through you are, is there any scope to negotiate to take a year out and resume in 2021? Delaying things might also mean you graduate into a better job market than seems likely over the next couple of years.

 

[HSTEd]

My University is not holding lectures in Semester 1 at all.
From my contacts in halls of residence it is unclear how many people will be permitted to move in September.

However in my academic teaching side of things, we are still expecting people in labs throuhgout first semester, although we have no idea how we can fit them all into our labs given 2m spacings between people.
(Our labs are packed full at the best of times).

 

[underbank]

just the virus which for most students this concerns, holds literally no risk to life.

How about the teachers, admin staff, lab staff, support staff etc? I doubt that any university can operate by using only "young and healthy" staff. Do you really expect your vulnerable teachers/lecturers and other staff to risk their life for you?

 

[scotrail158713]

And I bet the fees haven’t been reduced any?!

There’s no university fees up here

 

[6862]

How about the teachers, admin staff, lab staff, support staff etc? I doubt that any university can operate by using only "young and healthy" staff. Do you really expect your vulnerable teachers/lecturers and other staff to risk their life for you?

A good point, which should be dealt with in the same way as any private company or industry (i.e. remote working where possible, ppe etc) rather than just shutting down completely and only reopening in a very limited way as universities seem to be doing.

 

[43066]

How about the teachers, admin staff, lab staff, support staff etc? I doubt that any university can operate by using only "young and healthy" staff. Do you really expect your vulnerable teachers/lecturers and other staff to risk their life for you?

At some point those staff are going to need to return to work. Unless your suggestion is that they should remain idle until a vaccine is developed? Who do you think will be paying their wages?

There’s no university fees up here

How could I forget!

 

[Mag_seven]

Do you really expect your vulnerable teachers/lecturers and other staff to risk their life for you?

How many staff are "vulnerable" though? If they are of working age and have no underlying health conditions they certainly should not regards themselves as "risking their lives" by going to work at a university.

 

[Esker-pades]

At some point those staff are going to need to return to work. Unless your suggestion is that they should remain idle until a vaccine is developed? Who do you think will be paying their wages?

But they're not being idle. They're doing the same work from home.

 

[43066]

But they're not being idle. They're doing the same work from home.

Some might be, but not all. How exactly does a lab technician work from home?

Sorry but people need to get their heads around the fact that they’re going to need to return to work. And soon. Universities should be no different to any other type of business in this respect.

 

[underbank]

Some might be, but not all. How exactly does a lab technician work from home?

Sorry but people need to get their heads around the fact that they’re going to need to return to work. And soon. Universities should be no different to any other type of business in this respect.

Employers (inc unis) have a legal obligation re the health & safety of their employees. They have to provide a safe environment and that may include working from home etc which is presumably what they're doing. If some of their employees are vulnerable, then they can't be forced to work in a dangerous (for them) environment. Millions of workers are "vulnerable" - it's not just old people sat in care homes.

 

[BJames]

Absolutely ridiculous. Online tutorials are hardly the university experience you signed up for. And I bet the fees haven’t been reduced any?!

Depending on how far through you are, is there any scope to negotiate to take a year out and resume in 2021? Delaying things might also mean you graduate into a better job market than seems likely over the next couple of years.

1. No fees in Scotland but no such luck in England - my fees remain at £9250. A petition went round that I signed a while back to consider a reduction or cancellation of part of the tuition fees for the term just gone. The government didn't address the petition and so it was asked that the government revised their response and (I quote):

In deciding to keep charging full fees, universities will of course want to ensure that they can continue to deliver courses which are fit for purpose and help students progress their qualifications. Any refund is a matter for universities, so we are not considering a write off of tuition fee loans.

They go on to say:

The Government’s clear expectation is that HE providers should make all reasonable efforts to enable students to complete their studies. If providers are unable to facilitate good online tuition, they should seek to avoid charging students for any additional terms they may need to undergo as a consequence – avoiding effectively charging them twice. Whether or not an individual student is entitled to a refund of fees will depend on the specific contractual arrangements between the provider and student.

Unfortunately, they seem to be forgetting that most providers are unable to facilitate good online tuition because so much needs to be done in person. Not sure if they've heard of labs or workshops to say the very least.


2. (Negotiate and taking a year out) I have looked into this. The current position at my University is still not decided and is unlikely to be decided for another month or so as they want to try their best to plan for next year (I also suspect they are somewhat holding out on hope that they may have less restrictions in three months time). This would be great but unfortunately the University quite simply can't handle a mass exodus of students not paying their fees in 2020/21 academic year without serious financial support from the government - too many people would want to do this. It's different if you've not already started and I suspect a large proportion of these people will in fact defer. There's other issues with deferring as well including housing arrangements that have already been sorted and signed etc.

 

[yorkie]

How about the teachers, admin staff, lab staff, support staff etc? I doubt that any university can operate by using only "young and healthy" staff. Do you really expect your vulnerable teachers/lecturers and other staff to risk their life for you?

If they are told they need to shield then they will be shielding but failing that, unless there is a particular reason why they need to be shielding, it's ludicrous to suggest that people should refuse to work because of a risk of getting a virus. I don't know how long you think that people should be cooped up at home for, but there has to be a limit. It's unaffordable for social and economic reasons to refuse to get on with our lives indefinitely. It just cannot happen.

I don't know what you think the risks are, but you appear to be out of touch with the reality of what the level of risk actually is; see: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...oon-as-practicable.204133/page-2#post-4567657

Employers (inc unis) have a legal obligation re the health & safety of their employees. They have to provide a safe environment...

We cannot avoid the fact that, ultimately, people can get viruses.

We have to learn to live with this virus.

..... unfortunately the University quite simply can't handle a mass exodus of students not paying their fees in 2020/21 academic year without serious financial support from the government - ..

Some people are so detatched from reality they think an unlimited amount of money can be created to keep loads of people at home almost indefinitely in order to reduce the possibility of catching viruses; the reality is that even if such vast sums of money could be spent, you'd save far more lives spending it on other things. People who think this way are generally people in extremely secure jobs (or who do not need to work) and are not capable of seeing the bigger picture.

 

[BJames]

Employers (inc unis) have a legal obligation re the health & safety of their employees. They have to provide a safe environment and that may include working from home etc which is presumably what they're doing. If some of their employees are vulnerable, then they can't be forced to work in a dangerous (for them) environment. Millions of workers are "vulnerable" - it's not just old people sat in care homes.

The point being made was that lab technicians can't work from home. And the point made before by @Mag_seven was that a high proportion of University staff are not vulnerable. I completely accept that there are vulnerable staff (and some students) at University but we equally can't pretend that this can continue for an indefinite period. I think you may be overstating the risks, which, at University, are likely to be proportionately lower than in some other parts of society.

 

[RealTrains07]

As someone who is going into second year. Its a hugely concerning issue for me. Not least because its feels like all universities have done is focus on 1st years with the idea of social bubbles and limiting the amount of people living in student halls together with no focus students going into 2nd or 3rd year and what they are expected to do, what options do they have?

Dunno if any members who are also current university students feel the same?

Also I lived with 23 other people in my halls in first year and my university is cutting that number down to 8 people next year. I honestly don’t see how thats sustainable in anyway going forward.

I dont support delaying the start of the next academic year. That way I would only get half a year so I might as well have had the year off?

One question I have which I have seen no answers for anywhere? Can 2nd year or 3rd even take a year off and do those years next year? Like Year 1 students?

The situation with universities is a mess in my opinion and I just wish the DfE had more involvment than they do now instead of letting the Universities do whatever they want.

 

[43066]

Employers (inc unis) have a legal obligation re the health & safety of their employees. They have to provide a safe environment and that may include working from home etc which is presumably what they're doing. If some of their employees are vulnerable, then they can't be forced to work in a dangerous (for them) environment. Millions of workers are "vulnerable" - it's not just old people sat in care homes.

So your suggestion *is* that millions of workers should sit at home indefinitely!?
I’ll ask again who do you think will be paying their wages? It certainly won’t be the government. Many jobs simply cannot be done from home, so the choice is between turning up to work, or not working at all.

Sorry but you seem completely lost perspective on the risks posed by this virus to the overwhelming majority of working age people.

2. (Negotiate and taking a year out) I have looked into this. The current position at my University is still not decided and is unlikely to be decided for another month or so as they want to try their best to plan for next year (I also suspect they are somewhat holding out on hope that they may have less restrictions in three months time). This would be great but unfortunately the University quite simply can't handle a mass exodus of students not paying their fees in 2020/21 academic year without serious financial support from the government - too many people would want to do this. It's different if you've not already started and I suspect a large proportion of these people will in fact defer. There's other issues with deferring as well including housing arrangements that have already been sorted and signed

I can understand it being difficult for universities but would certainly hope requests to defer would he looked on favourably. The sort course that seems likely to be delivered in 2020/21 is a very, very long way from what you signed up for!

 

[underbank]

The point is under the law as it stands today, social distancing IS required in workplaces and if it can't be achieved, then PPE needs to be worn. Social gatherings of more than x people are currently banned. Who knows what the law will be in October? Any employer forcing their staff to work without SD and without PPE is risking being taken to the cleaners by employment tribunals.

I'm as keen as anyone for Unis to be back to normal by October as my own son is due to start this Autumn, but a Uni is a workplace and does need to comply with the law, so I understand the impossible position that Unis and students are in.

 

[yorkie]

The point is under the law as it stands today, social distancing IS required in workplaces and if it can't be achieved, then PPE needs to be worn. Social gatherings of more than x people are currently banned. Who knows what the law will be in October?

Well if that is the case in October, we'd be pretty much doomed economically and socially, but there is no way we are going to let this happen. It cannot happen. It won't be allowed to happen.

 

[Huntergreed]

Well if that is the case in October, we'd be pretty much doomed economically and socially, but there is no way we are going to let this happen. It cannot happen. It won't be allowed to happen.

I agree, as do a lot of users on here, and yet it seems that this is what the government are planning for (social distancing necessary until the virus is completely suppressed).

A lot of universities seem to have gone into a completely wild panic and are planning on all sorts of completely over the top safety measures which aren’t really necessary. It’s a bit like having airport style security at a local bus stop “just in case”, of course the risk is there, but it’s so minimal that there’s little to no benefit to applying such excessive and expensive (loss in fees) measures

 

[BJames]

I can understand it being difficult for universities but would certainly hope requests to defer would he looked on favourably. The sort course that seems likely to be delivered in 2020/21 is a very, very long way from what you signed up for!

We are in absolute agreement with that! Trying not to think about the fact that I may have to continue online learning well into my next academic year... doesn't fill me with a sense of excitement, to say the very least.

I agree, as do a lot of users on here, and yet it seems that this is what the government are planning for (social distancing necessary until the virus is completely suppressed).

It is strange, and I still wonder whether their stance on this will change. It's not like we haven't had considerable u-turns by the government throughout this. As said by others it's quite clear that social distancing and economic viability and sustainability are not compatible. We can make this work in part at Universities but it is with a) great reluctance, b) great cost and, most importantly c) at considerable detriment to short/medium term finances, as well as the actual quality of learning. There's the student experience too, but even before considering that we've got to think about the significant impact that this has on our degree quality and this is something that a lot more students are starting to take seriously from what I can tell, across not just my own circles but student forums and groups online.

 

[Esker-pades]

Some might be, but not all. How exactly does a lab technician work from home?

Such people are not working from home. Who do you think is doing all the medical research on the virus?

Sorry but people need to get their heads around the fact that they’re going to need to return to work. And soon. Universities should be no different to any other type of business in this respect.

The people in this case are already working. The ones who can (as per government advice) are doing so from home.

 

[David M]

There’s no university fees up here

Yes there are. They are met, in full, by The Scottish Government if you live in Scotland.

 

[6862]

Such people are not working from home. Who do you think is doing all the medical research on the virus?

A very good point, and also raises the issue that this is pretty much the only research being done (from what I have seen anyway)!

 

[scotrail158713]

Yes there are. They are met, in full, by The Scottish Government if you live in Scotland.

True. There’s no university fees for Scottish students is maybe a better way of putting it.

 

[MattA7]

I was supposed to be starting college this year but I’m seriously considering giving it a miss and leaving it until the next year as the thought of online learning, social distanced classes worry’s me only problem is if I do decide to do that the support worker who tried very hard to get me into college won’t exactly be pleased about it.

according to the college website they have delayed the start dates until late September (instead of late august) to allow them to adapt the building (ie make corridors one-way, re arrange classrooms and organize online learning etc)

I certainly feel I could have picked a worse year to start, however I applied back before the virus was invented (or it at least wasn’t in the UK)

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

I also plan to start University in September (well, now October) and my course specifically wouldn't be impossible to go fully-online, which I sincerely hope they don't do. The University has said that they plan to resume face-to-face teaching in October but as part of a blended model of teaching but hasn't actually given the specifics of how things will work yet.

 

[Huntergreed]

Is it me or are universities massively overreacting to what seems to be quite a minor threat. Most of the student body will not be affected by the virus, and most of the staff (65 or under, which is almost everyone at mine) also aren’t at high risk, and yet they’re going to have to implement very costly safety measures which are going to severely diminish if not completely destroy the student experience. Is it really, truly necessary to implement all these measures and move so much online when arguably asking students to cross the road to come in is as risky?

I can imagine seeing some university closures if things don’t change and become more sensible. I genuinely am starting to think the UK has lost its mind and is so focused on suppressing the virus that they’re completely ignoring the vast economic damage, huge detriment to wellbeing and excess deaths from literally everything else when most places could be opened with far, far less restrictive measures and still not risk a second peak.