Improved deal for football fans

[Starmill]

Not sure what can be agreed that has any substance. Fans usually get there and train is just one option

It would be pretty easy for the football club to offer a rail travel add-on to match tickets, sold through their website. A special price for a ticket valid on a pre-determined list of trains - say 3 or 4 nominated trains each way, agreed upon by the train company based on what they can offer and at what prices. This would drive sales and offer marketing and partnership publicity for the train operator and would give football attendees the lauded 'fair deal' because in the event of late-notice changes, the nominated trains can modulate to suit, with no additional fees charged. One would expect the price to be at a mid-point between the current cheapest flexible return and two relatively cheap Advance tickets. In the case of Newcastle to London as mentioned by another poster this could be around £85 return. Certainly not bargain basement - but a good deal on fast trains. Do football clubs contribute financially to this sort of thing themselves? If so, lower prices could be feasible.

Various kinks would remain to be ironed out such as an agreement on what to do if changes to schedules risk passengers being stranded, and also how many stations to offer the travel add on from. Ideally, a transfer by Metrolink, London Underground etc could also be added on but again this isn't without difficulties. Issuing an actual ticket this way is easy now though on most routes as it can simply be be a barcode, issued at the same time as match tickets.

 

[Starmill]

I would also ask, why are football matches so often re-scheduled at short notice ?

This has always bamboozled me. Obviously commercial imperatives will sometimes drive changes to pre-determined times, but there needs to be a clear point at which a schedule is considered confirmed, that everyone will then agree to. Two weeks as hinted at by one poster is quite crazy. If I were a train company I wouldn't want to agree to anything where I've sold hundreds of tickets and planned capacity accordingly, to have this torn up and want doing again at as ridiculous as two weeks notice!!

 

[MikeWh]

This has always bamboozled me. Obviously commercial imperatives will sometimes drive changes to pre-determined times, but there needs to be a clear point at which a schedule is considered confirmed, that everyone will then agree to. Two weeks as hinted at by one poster is quite crazy. If I were a train company I wouldn't want to agree to anything where I've sold hundreds of tickets and planned capacity accordingly, to have this torn up and want doing again at as ridiculous as two weeks notice!!

We're getting to the crunch time. At the beginning of the season the TV matches are decided well in advance. All clubs have to appear in a certain minimum number of fixtures and clubs who are not deemed attractive to the wider armchair audience will get most of their allocation in the first half of the season. As the season progresses the TV companies want to be concentrating on the matches that mean something, title race or relegation. The closer it gets to the end of the season the more effect recent results have on the desirability or otherwise of each fixture. A couple of years ago no-one would have been scheduling in February Leicester matches for TV in April. Then you have the golden 3-day rule. Apart from at Christmas when everyone plays a few games quickly, no club has to accept matches closer than 3 days apart. Thus a team who has been chosen for Sunday afternoon and then qualifies for a European tie which has to take place on the Tuesday will get the Sunday match moved back to Saturday. Likewise with Thursday matches which cause Saturday games to be moved to Sunday. The European group stages mean everything is planned in the first half of the season, but once you get to the knockout rounds it can change with not much notice. It's a minefield.

However, clearly it is in the rail industry's interest to make travel for football fans as attractive as possible. Airport Advances are an example of rail accepting that unforseen changes which cannot be accomodated will put people off using rail. This appears to be recognition that the scheduling of top football matches is another area where accomodation means attracting a good number of passengers with little advertising outlay.

 

[PR1Berske]

I would also ask, why are football matches so often re-scheduled at short notice ? I appreciate the football is a business and that the needs of the TV industry are paramount, but surely these needs are known in advance ?
It seems to me, that match times should be decided in advance, in consultation with the TV industry, and then NOT ALTERED except in truly extreme circumstances

The main reason is that SKY and BTSports are television networks who prefer "narrative" to the game itself. If they can schedule games to fit a certain story ("Liverpool face tricky away ties at the worst possible time!" "Will this early kick off set the stage for the weekends action?) then of course they will.

The FA reap the rewards of a multi million pound industry so rarely intervene in issues of scheduling.

 

[Alan Glaum]

FA Cup matches can cause changes inside the advance period. 2 months ago how many Bristol City fans would have thought Millwall might make the QFs next month?

 

[ivanhoe]

It would be pretty easy for the football club to offer a rail travel add-on to match tickets, sold through their website. A special price for a ticket valid on a pre-determined list of trains - say 3 or 4 nominated trains each way, agreed upon by the train company based on what they can offer and at what prices. This would drive sales and offer marketing and partnership publicity for the train operator and would give football attendees the lauded 'fair deal' because in the event of late-notice changes, the nominated trains can modulate to suit, with no additional fees charged. One would expect the price to be at a mid-point between the current cheapest flexible return and two relatively cheap Advance tickets. In the case of Newcastle to London as mentioned by another poster this could be around £85 return. Certainly not bargain basement - but a good deal on fast trains. Do football clubs contribute financially to this sort of thing themselves? If so, lower prices could be feasible.

Various kinks would remain to be ironed out such as an agreement on what to do if changes to schedules risk passengers being stranded, and also how many stations to offer the travel add on from. Ideally, a transfer by Metrolink, London Underground etc could also be added on but again this isn't without difficulties. Issuing an actual ticket this way is easy now though on most routes as it can simply be be a barcode, issued at the same time as match tickets.

Fine if you have a small fan base and you have more than 1 train an hour to London. Away tickets for United, Liverpool are like gold dust and getting one is more important to how you get there. Imagine trying to get to Crystal Palace for a 12.30 pm kick off . It's early start on the coach for that one if your a Liverpool fan. Fans who normally go by train, would have booked any discounted Euston tickets well in advance and Virgin know that.

 

[Starmill]

We're getting to the crunch time. At the beginning of the season the TV matches are decided well in advance. All clubs have to appear in a certain minimum number of fixtures and clubs who are not deemed attractive to the wider armchair audience will get most of their allocation in the first half of the season. As the season progresses the TV companies want to be concentrating on the matches that mean something, title race or relegation. The closer it gets to the end of the season the more effect recent results have on the desirability or otherwise of each fixture. A couple of years ago no-one would have been scheduling in February Leicester matches for TV in April. Then you have the golden 3-day rule. Apart from at Christmas when everyone plays a few games quickly, no club has to accept matches closer than 3 days apart. Thus a team who has been chosen for Sunday afternoon and then qualifies for a European tie which has to take place on the Tuesday will get the Sunday match moved back to Saturday. Likewise with Thursday matches which cause Saturday games to be moved to Sunday. The European group stages mean everything is planned in the first half of the season, but once you get to the knockout rounds it can change with not much notice. It's a minefield.

However, clearly it is in the rail industry's interest to make travel for football fans as attractive as possible. Airport Advances are an example of rail accepting that unforseen changes which cannot be accomodated will put people off using rail. This appears to be recognition that the scheduling of top football matches is another area where accomodation means attracting a good number of passengers with little advertising outlay.

A very interesting summary about an industry I'm not familiar with, thank you. I certainly agree with your conclusions.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

One of the root causes of the problem is the lack of long distance cheap day returns. Being a non-league fan (not out of choice), I hardly ever buy advance tickets as you can never be sure matches won't be postponed or re-arranged due to cup commitments. Many a time, I have had to go down to Ellesmere Port station on a Friday morning to buy a series of split-ticket day returns for the next day, often exploiting loopholes to my advantage. I've made huge savings by doing so. What a waste of everybody's time. There should be CDRs between every pair of stations in the country where a return journey in a day is feasible.

At higher levels, the demand for football specials has diminished over the years thanks to the limited allocation of tickets to away supporters at most grounds. And of course football specials need weeks/months of planning.

But some lines really struggle to cope with the influx of football fans. The Derby - Crewe line, often operated by single car 153s, must be a nightmare with fans of Forest, Notts, Derby, Stoke, Vale and Crewe, and their visitors, not to mention the Manchester and Liverpool clubs, all likely to use it. And there are racecourses at Uttoxeter, Chester and Southwell. Trains to & from Burnley also get seriously overcrowded.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

One of the root causes of the problem is the lack of long distance cheap day returns. Being a non-league fan (not out of choice), I hardly ever buy advance tickets as you can never be sure matches won't be postponed or re-arranged due to cup commitments. Many a time, I have had to go down to Ellesmere Port station on a Friday morning to buy a series of split-ticket day returns for the next day, often exploiting loopholes to my advantage. I've made huge savings by doing so. What a waste of everybody's time. There should be CDRs between every pair of stations in the country where a return journey in a day is feasible.

At higher levels, the demand for football specials has diminished over the years thanks to the limited allocation of tickets to away supporters at most grounds. And of course football specials need weeks/months of planning.

But some lines really struggle to cope with the influx of football fans. The Derby - Crewe line, often operated by single car 153s, must be a nightmare with fans of Forest, Notts, Derby, Stoke, Vale and Crewe, and their visitors, not to mention the Manchester and Liverpool clubs, all likely to use it. And there are racecourses at Uttoxeter, Chester and Southwell. Trains to & from Burnley also get seriously overcrowded.

Savings can be made through splits, it's true (a series of splits from Batley to Bordesley saved me about £20 a few years back) but the average supporter can't cope with one split let alone 4!

As you say, part of the problem is low-capacity services being overwhelmed by 300+ extra passengers. The Penistone line was always bad for this (and will be worse next season, unless Sheffield United go up), hence the aforementioned footex via Wakefield.

 

[Gems]

The last true football special I can remember was about 10 years ago. It took Bradford fans home from Morecambe. As I recall, it was trashed in the sidings at Carnforth after Network rail thought it a good idea to put it there for an hour to allow a later service train through a 17 mile section first.

Football fans are nothing but trouble, but not quite as nauseating as racegoers. Something about a drunk in a suit that is particularly repulsive.

 

[PR1Berske]

Football fans are nothing but trouble

Not true.

 

[Gems]

Not true.

Perhaps my statement is slightly over the top. Not all football fans are nothing but trouble. Just 90% of those from certain clubs.

 

[jtuk]

Perhaps my statement is slightly over the top. Not all football fans are nothing but trouble. Just 90% of those from certain clubs.

Also a ridiculous comment

 

[londonbridge]

This has always bamboozled me. Obviously commercial imperatives will sometimes drive changes to pre-determined times, but there needs to be a clear point at which a schedule is considered confirmed, that everyone will then agree to.

Not that easy when SKY are allowed to p*ss about with the schedules and pretty much do whatever the hell they want. Examples being, as mentioned earlier, when they pick a tv game and say that "A vs B will be played Sunday 1st at 1.30pm, however if A are involved in a Champions League match on Tuesday 3rd then A vs B will be played Saturday 31st at 5.30pm. How can you plan anything in this scenario until you know the Champions League schedule?

An even better example of Sky messing the fans around for no reason and with no consideration has occurred this season. Earlier on in the season Sunderland's away game against Accrington Stanley was abandoned midway through the second half due to the weather. In due course it was announced that it would be replayed on Tuesday March 5th and tickets were put on sale. The EFL website stated clearly that the Checkatrade Trophy semi finals were to be played in the week commencing Monday February 25th. Having reached the semi finals, the draw was made, pitting Portsmouth against Bury and Sunderland against Bristol Rovers. SKY then announced that Portsmouth-Bury would be live on TV on Tuesday February 26th, and Bristol Rovers-Sunderland would be live on TV on.........Tuesday March 5th! This means of course that the Accrington league game has to be rearranged again, but why should this be the case when there is absolutely no reason why Bristol Rovers-Sunderland could not have been played and shown live on Wednesday February 27th?? In moving the match back by a week SKY have done nothing but anger Sunderland fans who had already booked travel and/or accomodation for Accrington based on a date of March 5th with the safe assumption that that is when the game would be played.

To make things even more farcical, the Accrington game was then announced as rearranged for Tuesday April 2nd. BUT Sunday 31st March is the Checkatrade Trophy final, so if Sunderland are involved in that then Accrington will move again to Wednesday April 3rd. Again, why couldn't they just fix April 3rd as the date regardless of whether Sunderland are playing in the final or not?? Sky are just being d**kheads and p*ssing everybody off in order to suit their own agenda.

 

[philthetube]

It seems to me that if a football match is SCHEDULED to take place at an hour that requires an expensive ticket, then that is life and football fans do not deserve any special treatment as compared to other rail users whose leisure trips are expensive if taken during peak hours.

Where I have more sympathy is when a game is scheduled at a time that permits of discounted travel, and then subsequently changed, perhaps after fans have already booked rail tickets, or made other arrangements.

I would also ask, why are football matches so often re-scheduled at short notice ? I appreciate the football is a business and that the needs of the TV industry are paramount, but surely these needs are known in advance ?
It seems to me, that match times should be decided in advance, in consultation with the TV industry, and then NOT ALTERED except in truly extreme circumstances.

Easy solution, just require Sky to purchase replacement tickets for the fans and collect the refunds, if it is going to cost too much they may even consider not changing some games.

 

[Greg Read]

The game will be played when the Dark Lord Rupert Murdoch says it shall be

Do not think Rupe has had a say in it for some years now.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding some of the above posts with kick off times to suit TV coverage, when I had not been in Scotland for very long, there used to be Sunday evening kick offs at 6PM. This kick off time only lasted a couple of years as it was unpopular, especially for supporters who had to rely on public transport. Whenever Glasgow Rangers* (defunct since 2012 when got caught for tax dodging/fraud) had 6PM Sunday kick offs at home, the supporters could use the Underground to get there, but not for returning home as it closed at the time of kick off.

I do seem to remember that it was the "shame game" towards the end of the 1998/99 season that was the catalyst for the eventual scrapping of the 6PM Sunday kick offs. Perhaps in England if the kick off times were unpopular, the TV companies may consider a re-think?

*Although ideally this should be in the Football thread in General Discussion, somebody who stays round the corner from me runs a small event hospitality and catering organisation. He received paperwork from David Murray in April 2011 before Craig Whyte came on the scene, stating that regardless of the financial situation and regardless of any future change of ownership, he would get paid in full. Needless to say, the payment has never arrived and is still waiting for it almost 8 years later. Depending how how the liquidation proceedings conclude, the person that I know may initiate legal proceedings against David Murray to either seize assets from his other companies to the value of the amount, or to get Murray stripped of his knighthood and sent to jail. Craig Whyte got sent to jail for fraud when he used season ticket money that had been paid by the Ibrox faithful to take over the club before it went into liquidation.

 

[Iskra]

The last true football special I can remember was about 10 years ago. It took Bradford fans home from Morecambe. As I recall, it was trashed in the sidings at Carnforth after Network rail thought it a good idea to put it there for an hour to allow a later service train through a 17 mile section first.

Football fans are nothing but trouble, but not quite as nauseating as racegoers. Something about a drunk in a suit that is particularly repulsive.

I was at that game (as a neutral), Morecambe won 1-0, great goal. Bradford were very arrogant.

Football specials are more common than you think. Leeds usually have them when we play Blackburn or Burnley.

Some of the bigger clubs routinely charter special trains either from or to London. You also get them for games at Wembley.

 

[Iskra]

It would be pretty easy for the football club to offer a rail travel add-on to match tickets, sold through their website. A special price for a ticket valid on a pre-determined list of trains - say 3 or 4 nominated trains each way, agreed upon by the train company based on what they can offer and at what prices. This would drive sales and offer marketing and partnership publicity for the train operator and would give football attendees the lauded 'fair deal' because in the event of late-notice changes, the nominated trains can modulate to suit, with no additional fees charged. One would expect the price to be at a mid-point between the current cheapest flexible return and two relatively cheap Advance tickets. In the case of Newcastle to London as mentioned by another poster this could be around £85 return. Certainly not bargain basement - but a good deal on fast trains. Do football clubs contribute financially to this sort of thing themselves? If so, lower prices could be feasible.

Various kinks would remain to be ironed out such as an agreement on what to do if changes to schedules risk passengers being stranded, and also how many stations to offer the travel add on from. Ideally, a transfer by Metrolink, London Underground etc could also be added on but again this isn't without difficulties. Issuing an actual ticket this way is easy now though on most routes as it can simply be be a barcode, issued at the same time as match tickets.

Please be aware not all supporters of a certain club live in the city that club plays.

Perhaps they could just do a supporters railcard (also available to other sports fans) or discounted tickets with a valid match ticket?

 

[Puffing Devil]

A data point for you. There is a schedule when football fixture TV dates are normally set, this is for the current season and is on the PL Website:

Aug/Sept 6 July
Oct/Nov 7 August
Dec/Jan 12 October
Feb 12 December
Mar 25 January
Apr 22 February
May 5 April
MW38 post-MW37

However, cup competitions do mean that changes are made at short notice within that schedule.

Imagine a Theatre Fan getting tickets for Hamilton with two months notice, booking rail tickets and a hotel in London only to be told with 2 weeks notice that the show time has been moved from 7pm to 1pm as one of the main actors has a clash with another show. That's what can happen to football fans and it's very annoying.

Another annoying factor, though not within the scope of this thread, is the consistent later scheduling of games in London (or other cities) when one set of supporters then have a struggle to get home on public transport. For example, the League Cup final next Sunday (24th) has a KO of 4:30pm. This means many Man City fans rushing to make the last trains of the day from Euston, no mean feat when you see the queues for the tube at Wembley on match days and the possibility of extra time and penalties, taking the end of the fixture to 7pm and beyond.

3pm would be good for all fans, though the TV Gods have pushed it back to 4:30pm.

 

[silverfoxcc]

I recall some years ago the commentator on a mid day game on Sky was bemoaning the fact that these games had no atmosphere and 'asked' who set these times

Was very tempted to send him a rather strongly worded email that it was Sky the wagged the FA and no one else. Now we gt Sat games at 19.45 ko,and wasn't a Leicester-Spurs game that some numpty got a 19.45 ko on a Sunday!!

 

[Scotty]

I recall some years ago the commentator on a mid day game on Sky was bemoaning the fact that these games had no atmosphere and 'asked' who set these times

Was very tempted to send him a rather strongly worded email that it was Sky the wagged the FA and no one else. Now we gt Sat games at 19.45 ko,and wasn't a Leicester-Spurs game that some numpty got a 19.45 ko on a Sunday!!

It's the Premier League that set the kick off times, and sell the TV packages for them. Nothing to do with the FA, either...

 

[Comstock]

I would also ask, why are football matches so often re-scheduled at short notice ? I appreciate the football is a business and that the needs of the TV industry are paramount, but surely these needs are known in advance ?
It seems to me, that match times should be decided in advance, in consultation with the TV industry, and then NOT ALTERED except in truly extreme circumstances.

Completely agree with you. I'm not against football being televised, far from it, armchair fans pay a lot of money into the sport for the privilege. But so do real world fans and they deserve consideration.

 

[Class 170101]

I would be interested where football specials would start for some clubs?

Chelsea, Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal?

In terms of specials didn't Chelsea hire a Pendolino from Manchester to London after a late game at Manchester City midweek last season or the season before?

 

[Puffing Devil]

I would also ask, why are football matches so often re-scheduled at short notice ? I appreciate the football is a business and that the needs of the TV industry are paramount, but surely these needs are known in advance ?
It seems to me, that match times should be decided in advance, in consultation with the TV industry, and then NOT ALTERED except in truly extreme circumstances.

Completely agree with you. I'm not against football being televised, far from it, armchair fans pay a lot of money into the sport for the privilege. But so do real world fans and they deserve consideration.

Outwith the schedule I posted upthread, changes do occur as teams progress in cup competitions which take precedence over league fixtures.

 

[Puffing Devil]

I would be interested where football specials would start for some clubs?

Chelsea, Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal?

In terms of specials didn't Chelsea hire a Pendolino from Manchester to London after a late game at Manchester City midweek last season or the season before?

I know that Man City have chartered some trains in the past to/from London.

 

[FenMan]

Football fans are nothing but trouble

Absolute rubbish. Do you read the Daily Mail perchance?

 

[SteveP29]

Some selections this season involving Newcastle United:

Burnley (H), switched from Wed 27/02 to Tue 26/02 with 4 weeks notice (because BT had a free TV slot due to Spurs progression in the CL)
West Ham (A) 17:30 ko, Saturday 02/03, Last train back to Newcastle from Kings Cross: 19:33 (assuming the game finishes dead on time, that gives 15 minutes to get from Statford to KC)
Arsenal (A) 20:00 ko, Monday 01/04, Last train back to Newcastle from Kings Cross: 22:00 (again, finishing dead on time, gives 15 minutes to get from the Emirates to KC)

Last season:
Swansea, Brighton, Southampton, all 4pm kick offs on a Sunday

It is some 6 years since we last had a Premier League home game on a Monday night.
I understand geographical locations put us out on a limb and causes extra difficulty, but we are being continually asked to change plans with a maximum of 2 months notice.

Myself, travelling from Edinburgh for every home game, I only get 2 months notice for tv changes, train tickets have already been on sale for a month, I've found I'm paying at least 50% more for my tickets over the last 2 years (even accounting for the price rises in January) because I have to wait until the kick off times are confirmed

 

[Clip]

Please be aware not all supporters of a certain club live in the city that club plays.

Indeed - I live in London but support newcastle - its difficult as outlined below - its very different from your normal leisure traveller thats for sure.

Some selections this season involving Newcastle United:

Burnley (H), switched from Wed 27/02 to Tue 26/02 with 4 weeks notice (because BT had a free TV slot due to Spurs progression in the CL)
West Ham (A) 17:30 ko, Saturday 02/03, Last train back to Newcastle from Kings Cross: 19:33 (assuming the game finishes dead on time, that gives 15 minutes to get from Statford to KC)
Arsenal (A) 20:00 ko, Monday 01/04, Last train back to Newcastle from Kings Cross: 22:00 (again, finishing dead on time, gives 15 minutes to get from the Emirates to KC)

Last season:
Swansea, Brighton, Southampton, all 4pm kick offs on a Sunday

It is some 6 years since we last had a Premier League home game on a Monday night.
I understand geographical locations put us out on a limb and causes extra difficulty, but we are being continually asked to change plans with a maximum of 2 months notice.

 

[philthetube]

I would be interested where football specials would start for some clubs?

Chelsea, Manchester United, Manchester City, Arsenal?

In terms of specials didn't Chelsea hire a Pendolino from Manchester to London after a late game at Manchester City midweek last season or the season before?

where these trains finish, for the ground is far more important than where they start. Certainly an issue for some clubs though.