Improved FGW services to Banbury?

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by BanburyBlue, 10 Jun 2015.

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  1. BanburyBlue

    BanburyBlue Member

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    I'm sure I read something on Network Rail a couple of years ago that FGW wanted to improve services to Banbury. I seem to believe that Chiltern objected blaming the lack of operational flexibility at Banbury itself.

    Now that the re-signalling and revised layout is coming to fruition at Banbury, I wonder if FGW will indeed put in any plans to improve services to Banbury, and what this will mean? For example, are we talking more class 165s for the local stations between Banbury and Oxford, or more longer distance trains into Paddington (perhaps as a competitor to Chiltern following their decision to operate from Marylebone to Oxford)?
     
  2. Steve14

    Steve14 Member

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    It makes sense to have a local running service between Banbury and say Didcot Parkway? On top of that, Paddington to Oxford I reckon is unbeatable, they use HSTs, Adelantes which are extremely comfortable for the fast service with a few turbos doing the work where necessary. Although I haven't come across anything which says anything about improving the Paddington to Banbury rumoute, it makes sense to especially with the electrification. Possibly using the same trains that go on the fast to Oxford to be extended to Banbury. That would chuck another 20 mins or so on the time it takes overall for the fast service to reach Oxford. Banbury suffers dramatically with customers choosing to go towards Reading instead of Bicester due to the lack of intercity service it offers.
     
  3. Stats

    Stats Member

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    GWR's plan for Banbury is to replace Paddington services with shuttles to Oxford from May 2017, with 4 extended to Didcot Parkway.
     
  4. RPM

    RPM Established Member

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    There are rumblings about Chiltern taking over the Banbury - Oxford service at some point in the future, and possibly running on to Didcot too. Not sure how seriously it has been looked at though.
     
  5. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    Chiltern did run trains to Didcot when their line south of Banbury was blocked on some weekdays, last year as I recall.

    Surely though FGW would be better off extending Paddington to Oxford onwards to Banbury in competition with Chiltern. Would have thought it would be quicker between Banbury and London via Reading than via High Wycombe.
     
  6. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Paddington to Oxford will soon be electrified though, and probably operated by 387s - logically that means a curtailment of the through trains to Banbury?

    All change again with further wires of course...
     
  7. BanburyBlue

    BanburyBlue Member

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    Not all Paddington - Oxford trains will be electric though will they? Surely the ones going forward up the Cotswold line will still be diesel. Or will these be curtailed at Oxford too?
     
  8. Rich McLean

    Rich McLean Established Member

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    Correct

    Banbury stoppers will no longer run through to Paddington and terminate at Oxford once 387s come on line. For reasons above. No decision made as of yet if those services are run by Chiltern so a DMU will be needed at Oxford Carriage Sidings, as well as a DMU Required for the all shacks Cotswold (1tpd in each direction).
     
  9. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    I was only considering the through Paddington to Banbury problem, what happens up the Cotswolds doesn't really affect Banbury surely?
     
  10. BanburyBlue

    BanburyBlue Member

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    Yes agreed, was just making the point that even with electrification there will still be Paddington - Oxford diesels. So no reason why there couldn't be Paddington - Banbury diesels.
     
  11. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Well there is a reason, in that it doesn't make much sense to electrify a route and then use DMUs for a route electrified over the majority of its distance. The two cases are not quite the same as the distance beyond Oxford up into the Cotswolds is significantly further, pro rata; and of course the Cotswolds will also see IEPs on a good few services.
     
  12. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    In that case front train to Worcester etc and rear train to Banbury.
     
  13. D1009

    D1009 Established Member

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    There's no longer the political support for inter TOC competition like there was in the 1990s. The Banbury to London market is small compared with Oxford, and given the amount of Oxford London traffic the trains would be conveying predominantly fresh air north of Oxford.
     
  14. Stats

    Stats Member

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    Won't all Cotswold services be bi-mode Class 800s and therefore there won't be any diesels between Oxford and Paddington?

    This document gives good details about what is happening in the new franchise - page 34 for Banbury services
    http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/-/media/pdf/aboutus/ourbusiness/stakeholders report/nfgwf.pdf
     
  15. Harlan Cage

    Harlan Cage Member

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    It would be good if Chiltern could take over all FGW services!

    HC
     
  16. cle

    cle Established Member

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    They could run onto the Oxford Science Park proposal as a local service...?
     
  17. Clip

    Clip Established Member

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    What magic would Chiltern provide then if they took over from FGW? Would they magically remove all the problems with fairy dust ? Even the ones that are out of FGW hands?
     
  18. RPM

    RPM Established Member

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    Very much doubt Chiltern would be interested in that.
     
  19. DaveHarries

    DaveHarries Established Member

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    My understanding is that the 165s & 166s are to head south west, starting Spring 2016, when electrics start to come into play on local services between Paddington and Reading and that the 165s and 166s will be superseded on those services by 365s from TGN which will, in turn, be replaced in the TGN fleet by 387s.

    That is what I read anyway. Interestingly, as if to corroborate this, FGW did an ECS run from Reading to St. Philips Marsh TMD in a 165 (or 166: not sure which) on the first May Bank Holiday this year.

    Dave
     
  20. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    FGW are getting all the 29 x 387/1s (they will start leaving TSGN within a year) and also an additional 8 x 387/3s. FGW's 365s will be a lesser part of their overall EMU fleet, probably dedicated to the slower 'all stations' services.
     
  21. Hophead

    Hophead Member

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    My understanding is that the initial allocation of EMUs will operate just between Paddington & Hayes (there being no operational OHLE much past there for the time being).

    I think that this service replaces the Greenford shuttle (cut back to West Ealing in advance of the introduction of Crossrail), but I'm happy to be corrected on that.
     
  22. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    No need for correction, you are repeating something that is explicitly included in published information, (First's GW direct award briefing) however it is fairly irrelevant to the Banbury situation. I did notice a confusion about start dates though, with DfT having it as May 2017 in their March announcement, but FGW saying May 2016 in their own version.
     
    Last edited: 12 Jun 2015
  23. BanburyBlue

    BanburyBlue Member

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    Not sure I totally agree with this. There is a significant amount of Banbury - London traffic, as well as Banbury - Oxford - Reading traffic. FGW have never really courted this and i'm sure do the absolute minimum for Banbury as defined in the franchise. Let's be honest, FGW don't put on the direct Banbury - Paddington 'stoppers' (taking 2 hours +) because they think it's a viable alternative to Banbury - Marylebone. That said, I think if FGW did put on some decent Banbury - Paddington services, there would be a demand because of the better LU links at Paddington.
     
  24. LexyBoy

    LexyBoy Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I can't see the demand for Banbury-Paddington justifying extending an IEP diagram. With the journey to Marylebone taking under an hour in many cases it wouldn't compete on time, and the journey to Paddington is already easy for those who want it, with a same-platform change at Oxford.

    I would like to see the shuttle running routeinely to Didcot though (or even Reading, if the stoppers were to be split there due to Crossrail). This would provide better links through Oxfordshire and more importantly perhaps better connections with the West - two changes for Banbury-Swindon is silly given the distance! Didcot also has spare platform capacity going for it.
     
  25. JamesRowden

    JamesRowden Established Member

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    Looking at data using Traveline, I can conclude that it would be faster to travel Banbury-Marylebone and walk to Paddington than it would be to travel on a train calling at Oxford and Reading only.

    I think that the simple way to way to meet Banbury-Swindon demand would be to have an hourly Crosscountry service call at Didcot to connect with Great Western services. How would one make the TOCs co-operate in such a way?
     
  26. BanburyBlue

    BanburyBlue Member

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    There have been a few 'attempts' over the years where XC services have called at Didcot. Seems to happen for a timetable period or two then get quietly dropped.
     
  27. Rich McLean

    Rich McLean Established Member

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    As I put above, 1tpd in each direction will be a DMU on the Cotswold, which is the all stations stopper which will start and terminate at Oxford. Everything else will be Class 800s
     
  28. Cherry_Picker

    Cherry_Picker Established Member

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    You could let Banbury to Paddington train depart and wait for the next Marylebone train, stop for a haircut when you reach Marylebone station, take a very slow walk in the direction of Paddington once you've had your haircut stopping for a coffee somewhere on Edgware Road or Praed Street on the way and still get to the ticket barriers at Paddington station before the stopper got in.

    I'm not sure there is any demand at all for Paddington to Banbury services in either direction and the reason they still run is probably just because they have always ran.
    Banbury has good services to London, Oxford and Reading without FGW services. You might find that everybody is better served by diagramming stock and train crew to provide a more frequent shuttle service designed to increase passenger numbers at Kings Sutton, Heyford & Tackley.
     
  29. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Member

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    One reason to extend to Banbury is that one of the main causes of delays at Oxford are the terminating services (slow and fast) as someone walks through checking and then locking the doors before they move off to the carriage sidings. At least Banbury has the extra platform.

    Obviously the costs etc would be prohibitive, need extra stock etc
     
  30. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Will be fixed with Oxford's additional down platform and associated track remodelling.
     
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