In Trouble for Using A Ticket Displaying "DISC"

[LuluG]

Mod Note - Split from this thread.

DISC is a generic code to show that a discount has been applied. This in no way indicates that it was a Railcard discount.

Unfortuantely First Capital Connect revenue collectors can't read the ticket codes and I have just been fined £50.40 for traveling on a ticket with the DISC code on it

 

[LexyBoy]

Unfortuantely First Capital Connect revenue collectors can't read the ticket codes and I have just been fined £50.40 for traveling on a ticket with the DISC code on it

I suggest you start a new thread in the Disputes and Prosecutions forum with details of what ticket you were using, and what happened, and forum members may be able to assist.

 

[transportphoto]

Unfortuantely First Capital Connect revenue collectors can't read the ticket codes and I have just been fined £50.40 for traveling on a ticket with the DISC code on it

Hi LuluG,

If you're able to give more information into the circumstances surrounding this, we may be able to help you.

TP

 

[LuluG]

Not much to say really, I bought a ticket online, through the Southern Railway website. It was valid on all routes, and all times as was a Saturday.

I was on a First Capital Connect train. During the journey I was stopped by two FCC revenue collection staff. They demanded to see my railcard, which I don't have. I have never had a railcard. I explained that this ticket didn't need one, and that it was a discounted price due to ordering online. They were rude, intimidating and behaved like a couple of bullies. I said that I didn't like their attitude, esp as was already feeling sad as was on way to a funeral, and asked to see a manager - he said he was a manager, his name is Theo. At first threatened to confiscate my ticket (which would have meant no return ticket, travel card in London, and no evidence) they then made to give it back, but at last second snatched it back away saying no you can't have it. they then said I could have it back only if I paid a fine. By then doubting myself, I paid the fine. £50.40. On returning home later that day I stopped off at the ticket office and asked two members of staff there if there was anything wrong with my ticket, had it been valid for that journey etc etc, and told them what had happened. They both confirmed that my ticket was in fact totally valid, and that these men had been wrong. Why are FCC revenue collection staff let loose on customers when they can't even read ticket codes?? I have complained everywhere I can, FCC have been useless, 'thanks for contacting us'. I have had to apply to a third party company to appeal, and ask for a refund - FCC won't get involved in that despite the fact their staff shouldn't have charged me the fine in the first place!

 

[LuluG]

At 9:04am on Saturday the 2nd March I boarded a First Capital Connect train at Brighton, heading for London Bridge. I was travelling to attend a funeral of an old friend.

I had bought my ticket the week prior to this, online, via the Southern Railway website, and had it posted to me. I know that I entered all the relevant journey details correctly whilst booking it.

At 9:50am a couple of FCC revenue collection staff entered the carriage I was sitting in. They clipped my ticket and then demanded to see my railcard. I don’t have a railcard. Never have done. I explained that I had booked a ticket that didn’t need one.

There then ensued 20 minutes of what I can only describe as bullying. The one guy; Theo was on his name badge (though I have since discovered that collection staff frequently use each other’s badges); was so rude straight off, that I told him I didn’t want to talk to him but would like to talk to a manager. He said he was the manager.

I explained I was travelling up to London for a funeral, and therefore already feeling sad, and that I could do without his aggressive attitude, and he told me he didn’t care where I was going, and that it was me with the attitude and unless I complied he would have me thrown off the train and taken to the police.

He insisted I had bought the wrong ticket. At one point he made out to be passing my ticket back to me, only to snatch it away again saying I couldn’t have it, and that he was confiscating it.

Due to the fact I was on a time limit, I couldn’t get off at the next station and discuss with a ticket office, and therefore I had no option but to pay the fine they were forcing me to pay £50.40.

I was told that the letters DISC on the ticket meant it was only valid with a railcard. I didn’t think this was correct, but what could I do?

On returning home to Brighton later that day, I stopped off at the ticket office to explain what had happened, and for them to check my ticket in case I had in fact been wrong. I was told that the letters DISC purely mean that it was a discounted ticket due to purchasing it online and in advance. And that the revenue collectors had been wrong. The member of staff I spoke to, also got another staff member to confirm this, which she did. They were staff of Southern Railway, and were friendly, courteous and sympathetic.

I have reported this to FCC. I have tweeted them and sent emails and called them. I have only received their standard and ineffective response back, and no apology for the way that I was treated. Also no explanation as to why their revenue collectors are unable to read the tickets which seems a basic part of their job requirement to me. Especially one that told me he was a manager of the Revenue Collection team?

I have now had to write to a third party company, to request a refund for something I should never have been charged for in the first place. First Capital Connect have shown little interest and have not offered to retrieve my money.

 

[Ferret]

Oh dear, this is rather embarassing for FCC. I'm assuming that you have already paid the £50.40 and need to get that refunded to you?

The ultimate endgame through some appropriately worded letters to FCC is that they'll have no choice but to refund you, and you may eve be able to elicit some travel vouchers for use at a later date as further compensation too.

I'm sure others will be more than happy to proof read an appropriate letter for you in order to bring this about.

 

[tony6499]

Awful thing to happen to you, DISC as any conductor/RPI should know is as exactly as you said.

Just one thing what exactly was your ticket and what was the route on it ?

 

[radamfi]

you may eve be able to elicit some travel vouchers for use at a later date as further compensation too.

Just travel vouchers?!

Given the serious nature of the behaviour of the FCC RPIs, I would accept no less than £1,000 in compensation.

 

[jon0844]

Just travel vouchers?!

Given the serious nature of the behaviour of the FCC RPIs, I would accept no less than £1,000 in compensation.

What?! For what?

The money back (by cheque, not vouchers if requested), perhaps with some extra as a goodwill gesture and to cover the actual cost of writing to FCC and dealing with the incident, a full apology and the assurance that there will be retraining and an investigation is a proper outcome.

I really do wish we could stop this compensation culture; it's not about the money here. It's about FCC making a big error and now being given the chance to put things right. I say this as someone treated in a similar fashion by FCC that wasn't trying to profit from the incident.

 

[Realfish]

I have reported this to FCC. I have tweeted them and sent emails and called them. I have only received their standard and ineffective response back, and no apology for the way that I was treated. Also no explanation as to why their revenue collectors are unable to read the tickets which seems a basic part of their job requirement to me. Especially one that told me he was a manager of the Revenue Collection team?

I have now had to write to a third party company, to request a refund for something I should never have been charged for in the first place. First Capital Connect have shown little interest and have not offered to retrieve my money.

I think that FCC's response to this adds insult to injury, someone there (and it should be someone of some real seniority) should get their bottom into gear and sort this out immediately. They (or their agents) having got this shamefully wrong should not expect the OP to go chasing third parties.

 

[pinguini]

Just travel vouchers?!

Given the serious nature of the behaviour of the FCC RPIs, I would accept no less than £1,000 in compensation.

Compensation is designed to compensate you for a loss. How has the OP incured a loss totalling £1,000 in this incident?

 

[jb]

I really do wish we could stop this compensation culture; it's not about the money here. It's about FCC making a big error and now being given the chance to put things right. I say this as someone treated in a similar fashion by FCC that wasn't trying to profit from the incident.

I detest the compensation culture as much as the next man - and really don't like the s and s that you sometimes see on here after posters report securing compensation on the thinnest of grounds.

Nonetheless, at face value this is a very major screw-up and in my view some fairly serious recompense is in order.

 

[jon0844]

We can probably all argue about the exact 'loss' (which so far is just £50.40!) but the most important thing now is to escalate the complaint to the right people within FCC to get that full apology and a promise that something will be done.

I managed to get a bulletin out to all staff about my problem (the combination of two Travelcards) so I would expect nothing less here to ensure ALL RPIs are fully aware.

Only this morning I've had a response from FCC over another issue (and £10 of vouchers, giving me a small profit to cover the time to write a couple of emails) so once you reach the right people, things can be resolved.

 

[bb21]

The thing with compensation is that it partly serves as a deterrent that prevents organisations from making the same mistakes, which could potentially have serious potential consequences for the victim, again.

The RPI's actions are wholly inappropriate in this case and could have resulted with the passenger in a vulnerable position had he not paid up. I don't think compensation is over the top in this case.

That said, I understand the comment by radamfi of demanding £1000 from FCC more as a statement of intent rather than an actual expectation of the figure expected. Clearly £1000 would have been way too disproportionate for such an incident.

 

[radamfi]

We have read some many incidents about FCC on here over a long period of time to know that they have learned nothing, despite promises that they will change. We can conclude that FCC are hell bent on aggression, and no doubt aggressive behaviour is actually mandated by the management. Therefore the only thing they will understand is a severe financial penalty.

 

[Ferret]

We have read some many incidents about FCC on here over a long period of time to know that they have learned nothing, despite promises that they will change. We can conclude that FCC are hell bent on aggression, and no doubt aggressive behaviour is actually mandated by the management. Therefore the only thing they will understand is a severe financial penalty.

FCC's problem is in the training department. Some of their staff clearly know no better - this is an elementary mistake to be making.

 

[jon0844]

We have read some many incidents about FCC on here over a long period of time to know that they have learned nothing, despite promises that they will change. We can conclude that FCC are hell bent on aggression, and no doubt aggressive behaviour is actually mandated by the management. Therefore the only thing they will understand is a severe financial penalty.

No, there are threads that show some FCC RPIs are definitely wrong. Some RPIs are very polite, professional and do things correctly (and rarely get mentioned here, if ever). Others are doing their job properly and being accused of things simply because the 'victim' has been caught doing wrong and doesn't like it. I'd expect the latter is the majority.

Myself and the OP here are clearly 'in the right', and it's only fair to give FCC the chance to put things right. I would hope and expect that no RPI is now doing anyone for using two Travelcards (Z1-3 & 4-6) on the basis that they also need a Z3-4 ticket to bridge a non-existent gap.

Hopefully from this, we'll see that no RPI will misread DISC and think it requires a railcard from now on. It certainly doesn't suggest that all RPIs would make this mistake, or that there's some management encouragement to make such big mistake to raise funds. I am sure FCC is already doing very well from the increase in byelaw 18 prosecutions instead of PFs!

Now if FCC was fined for making a mistake, it might well prompt changes. I'd like to think that nobody is going to just sweep this under the carpet unless forced to dish out compensation to an individual.

So let's see what FCC has to say first. For something like this, it's important to make sure that the complaint is being made to the right people too.

 

[radamfi]

I don't believe the FCC incidents are simply the RPI making an honest mistake. There are too many examples where the passenger has had a slightly unusual ticket, or combination of tickets, but the RPI has said, unequivocally, that the ticket is DEFINITELY invalid.

For example, someone who hasn't had training in tickets might be a bit unsure whether a combination of zones without an overlapping zone is valid. So, at worst, a RPI would phone up his manager to check whether it was allowed. That is the worst case scenario assuming poor training. He certainly should not be totally confident that the combination of tickets was invalid, unless he was 'trying it on', like certain other companies like Megatrain and Yodel.

The FCC RPIs have nothing to lose by claiming that valid tickets are invalid, as most of the time the passenger will just pay up. Only ticket enthusiasts, like us, would put up a fight, and even then they will probably not get into trouble from their superiors if FCC have to give the occasional refund if the RPIs concerned bring in a lot of revenue.

 

[W230]

The FCC RPIs have nothing to lose by claiming that valid tickets are invalid, as most of the time the passenger will just pay up.

I don't quite agree with this. While it sounds in this post like the FCC RPI's have made an extremely basic error (which simply should not have happened), I don't accept that RPI's (FCC or otherwise) would be telling people tickets are invalid when they know they are. The problem, once again, seems to be a very poor level of training given to staff by yet another TOC.

To me the best case scenario is that the OP gets her refund, a grovelling apology detailing that they will take action to address this training issue and some sort of vouchers as a goodwill gesture due to the exceptionally poor level of service the OP has received. Then FCC would make sure that every RPI was aware of the mistake made so that it will never happen again.

Ever the optimistic...

 

[radamfi]

I admit I haven't had any encounters with RPIs for a long time, but I don't usually have unusual tickets. But even when I was using the famous FGW loophole last year, travelling from Reading to St Ives on a Didcot to Swindon ticket, the guards and RPIs were fine. The worst thing that happened was when a RPI took photos of my ticket. No doubt if I was on FCC they would have called the police.

The only serious encounter I can think of is on the FCC route, but when it was still run by the Thameslink franchise. I was using a Standard Open Return outward portion but not on the first day of validity (this was when the outward portion was valid for a month). The RPI was convinced it was invalid! This is surely as basic as it gets. Luckily, I had the photocopy of the page of the fare manual concerning SORs, but when I showed it him the RPI said it was wrong! I think I only escaped a Penalty Fare or excess because the RPI was getting off the train at the next station.

 

[jon0844]

I don't believe FCC is actively telling staff to deliberately try and issue PFs or threaten prosecutions for tickets known to be valid. I do agree the training might be lacking. In many cases (as in mine) some staff are simply not up to the job or think they already know it all and won't budge even when you can argue in a pretty clear, polite and detailed manner as to why they're wrong.

If it was a company policy, chances are it would be the same with all First Group operations and so you'd see it all over the country where they operate.

Some, and I mean some, RPIs are so arrogant that they're not willing to listen to anyone - or even call and check with someone that might correct them. This seems to be the problem with RJ and EMT.

Also, their colleagues (when they work in pairs, or even larger groups) seem to automatically side with them, even if they later admit that they thought it was wrong too!! I guess I should appreciate staff staying loyal to each other, but there has to be a limit. I know in the aviation industry, there were many fatal accidents because of staff not daring to stand up to their colleagues.

I think another problem is that when FCC set up its fraud teams, some of the people that made the new grade let the power go to their head and suddenly thought that every single person was/is a potential fraudster. Walking around without a name badge, whipping out the 'warrant card' like you're in the FBI and using PACE to read rights to someone as if they've just been caught for mass murder.

Quite laughable, but not unique to FCC I'm sure.

[I do think there are issues with how FCC is now actively seeking to issue less PFs in favour of prosecutions, with the further intent to offer out of court settlements for much larger sums - and not really wanting to take anyone to court at all, just make a great deal of money, instead of actually prosecuting those that probably should be taken to court]

 

[sheff1]

I explained I was travelling up to London for a funeral, and therefore already feeling sad, and that I could do without his aggressive attitude, and he told me he didn’t care where I was going, and that it was me with the attitude and unless I complied he would have me thrown off the train and taken to the police.

If I were ever threatened in such a way by one of these clowns, I would insist that he called the police and, if he didn't, I would call them myself.

As for those who say this an 'error' or 'mistake', I would use far stronger terms than that - how does 'threatening behaviour' or 'intimidation' sound.

 

[jon0844]

Possibly intimidating if the RPI was trying hard to get someone to agree to pay up, but I am not sure about the threatening behaviour bit or how you think they're one and the same.

You could have refused to pay and the worst that would have happened would be BTP getting called. I doubt anyone thinks the RPI would have put the OP in any danger.

I think we need some context here! This is all a big distraction from what is still a very serious matter, but isn't about the OP being in danger or deserving thousands of pounds of compensation. It's about sorting out the problem and making damn sure it can't happen again.

 

[reb0118]

For example, someone who hasn't had training in tickets might be a bit unsure whether a combination of zones without an overlapping zone is valid. So, at worst, a RPI would phone up his manager to check whether it was allowed. That is the worst case scenario assuming poor training.

Unfortunately some managers are also ignorant of the ticketing rules & regs. If they then confirm that the RPI is correct in his assumption it only escalates the matter.

NB I know my tickets but don't get it right 100% of the time. However, if I am in any doubt about ticket validity I always allow the passenger to travel unhindered. I would of course advise the passenger of my doubts and ask them to check validity at their local booking office. I would then check myself with various sources to confirm the validity or otherwise of the tickets presented later.

It seems from the OP's account that the RPIs involved knew that they were right. Unfortunately this type of person is one of the hardest to change their point of view.

 

[Fare-Cop]

Awful thing to happen to you, DISC as any conductor/RPI should know is as exactly as you said.

Just one thing what exactly was your ticket and what was the route on it ?

I too detest the way that so many threads immediately jump to the advice to 'grab some compo', but looking through the thread again and to try to get back on track as it were, I see that the OP hasn't come back to answer Tony's question.

The answer to that might also have a bearing

That aside, on the claim that 'DISC means Railcard' the RPI was undoubtedly and very embarassingly wrong!

Hopefully some retraining on ticket validities will be the least of his reminders.

Nonetheless, without details of the actual journey, where from & to, route and amount of fare paid how can any of us be certain that the actual ticket didn't have another validity issue.

Please don't get me wrong, there is no excuse for rudeness and lack of ticket knowledge by an RPI, but without all the information that was evident it's all too easy for any of us to go of 'half-cocked' with advice when sitting at a keyboard.

FCC should be given an opportunity to put right their employee's error. An apology from him, a full refund of £50.40 plus some compensation to make up for the inconvenience, but this isn't a life-threatening matter and talk of compensation in terms of a thousand pounds or more is frankly as distasteful as any corporate profiteering in my view.

 

[radamfi]

The OP did say that the RPI's attitude was 'aggressive'.

I wonder if it is advisable to record such encounters if you have a camera on your phone? If someone who posts here for advice showed us such a video we might be able to make a better judgement regarding the behaviour of the RPI.

 

[gazthomas]

Should take them to court! Their own medicine after all.

 

[Oswyntail]

The OP did say that the RPI's attitude was 'aggressive'.

I wonder if it is advisable to record such encounters if you have a camera on your phone? ....

And what would the reaction of an "aggressive" person be if you started to film them? I very much doubt they would just let it continue!

 

[Ferret]

Should take them to court! Their own medicine after all.

I actually think somebody will do this one day - similar to the guy who took one of those cold callers to Court having invoiced them for wasting his time!

Meanwhile, the OP is 50 quid out of pocket and it'd be nice if we listened to JonMorris who is trying hard to be the voice of reason here!

 

[radamfi]

And what would the reaction of an "aggressive" person be if you started to film them? I very much doubt they would just let it continue!

I highly doubt that the RPI would try to wrestle a phone out of the hand of customer, unless he wanted to get sacked!