Incident at Loughborough Junction (18/06)

[221129]

Do all trains have forward facing CCTV these days...?

No...

 

[martin2345uk]

I'm pretty sure most (if not all) do

Really can't imagine how a poor driver would feel to be told their train hit and killed 3 people, it's too awful for words.

 

[farleigh]

I don't think anybody genuinely believes that they DESERVED to die...

Sorry - I was referring to the posts that said they had no sympathy. You are correct and I overstated it.

 

[221129]

I'm pretty sure most (if not all) do

This is not the case.

 

[Domh245]

I'm pretty sure most (if not all) do

Nope. It was mentioned following the Southern Level Crossing incident a few months back that all of the 377s (bar /6s and /7s) don't have FFCTV, although everything new has them and lots of fleets retrofitted. I certainly doubt that too many freight locomotives have FFCCTV, seeing as it's being retrofitted to the TPE 68s.

 

[GB]

Having no sympathy for the specific individuals involved is not the same as saying they deserved what they got. I have no more sympathy for people in these kinds of situations then I do for people that hang off buildings/cranes, ride bikes on a public road at 100+mph etc etc...their famalies yes, the services yes, the poor individuals that have been dragged into the situation or witnessed it yes...but not those that chose to put themselves in the such situations.

If you want to have sympathy for them fine, but don't judge others by your own morals.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It could have been that they were 'hiding' as the unit passed and then got caught and entangled or even pushed up against various bits of infrastructure where clearance is limited.

I saw a blue and white no clearance checkboard sign in the BBC coverage and my guessing is that the fixed steps on the side of the unit hit the one closest to the back of the unit and it caused a domino effect. Although there may have been more people involved.

 

[Sean Emmett]

Tragic incident, but what on earth were they doing on the tracks?

Sorry for the victims of course, but particularly for emergency services and rail staff who had to clean up and for those passengers whose journeys were needlessly disrupted.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Having no sympathy for the specific individuals involved is not the same as saying they deserved what they got. I have no more sympathy for people in these kinds of situations then I do for people that hang off buildings/cranes, ride bikes on a public road at 100+mph etc etc...their famalies yes, the services yes, the poor individuals that have been dragged into the situation or witnessed it yes...but not those that chose to put themselves in the such situations.

If you want to have sympathy for them fine, but don't judge others by your own morals.

Spot on, 100% agree.

 

[farleigh]

I don't understand how anybody knows they are criminals. You will probably be proved right but that has not been established and so I do think it is wrong to label the deceased as such when we do not know that. Personally, I see no need to go down that route even if they were spraying graffiti. It is a tragedy.

 

[PeterC]

I just wish that the news broadcasters would stop calling them "artists".

 

[221129]

I don't understand how anybody knows they are criminals. You will probably be proved right but that has not been established and so I do think it is wrong to label the deceased as such when we do not know that. Personally, I see no need to go down that route even if they were spraying graffiti. It is a tragedy.

By definition of them being on the tracks they were criminals.

 

[farleigh]

By definition of them being on the tracks they were criminals.

Incorrect but let's leave it at that.

 

[Bromley boy]

By definition of them being on the tracks they were criminals.

Indeed.

I made that point earlier but it is falling on deaf ears.

 

[BRX]

Nobody has said that.

People have said that they were criminals who shouldn’t have been on the tracks in the first place.

Putting alleged graffiti “artistry” aside, trespass on the railway is a criminal offence in and of itself.

You've effectively said above that you have no sympathy for the three people who died today, or their friends and families.

 

[Merseysider]

Does every thread have to turn into a bitchfest? Three people have lost their lives yet still people are bickering over semantics. It’s pathetic really.

 

[221129]

Incorrect but let's leave it at that.

In what way is it incorrect? Unless they were track workers then they were committing a criminal offence of trespassing on the railways thus making them by definition criminals...

 

[Master29]

It`s tragic that people die through acts of shear stupidity but it`s a fact of life. Much like a boy racer dying through speeding it is still stupidity. It has nothing to do with people "deserving to die". Maybe the companions of these people will learn as to why this has been made a criminal offence in the first place.

 

[tsr]

Hoped everyone has upped security at stabling points tonight...

It has been noted. Obviously everything has flaws, but it's not gone unnoticed by the powers that be.

I assume the in-cab recording will be collected from the service involved, maybe that could shed some light on what really happened.

If it doesn't have a camera, all it's likely to do is confirm things like speed and driver actions, of which there were presumably none.

Do all trains have forward facing CCTV these days...?

Definitely not. And if they do, it may be hard to download, especially if footage has been overwritten if the train has continued for any length of time.

I saw a blue and white no clearance checkboard sign in the BBC coverage and my guessing is that the fixed steps on the side of the unit hit the one closest to the back of the unit and it caused a domino effect. Although there may have been more people involved.

A blue and white sign would imply there were refuges on the other side of the line. This, in turn, could be seen to imply they were somewhere they (or a gang in general) knew they could hide nearby, but were either caught out or were not in a position to do anything about it (incapacitated or otherwise).

You can be caught out by a freight train at 10mph, sure, but the sort of graffiti artists climbing that structure would normally be long gone. Something is definitely "unexplained".

I don't understand how anybody knows they are criminals. You will probably be proved right but that has not been established and so I do think it is wrong to label the deceased as such when we do not know that.

Exactly. Await official information.

In what way is it incorrect? Unless they were track workers then they were committing a criminal offence of trespassing on the railways thus making them by definition criminals...

If it is unexplained, other people could be at least partially responsible. Even within the group, one of the deceased may have borne more responsibility for the actions than others. (If the latter is the case, nobody will probably ever get to the bottom of it.)

 

[Mojo]

Would it really be necessary to be telling the driver involved that it was their train? Surely it'd be best to avoid the bad feelings?

Often there will be no choice as the staff involved would usually have to be interviewed by the ORR. A colleague of mine was involved in a similar incident where a person was hit by a train but it was not realised at the time; they were interviewed on two separate occasions after the event.

 

[All Line Rover]

[Bromley Boy] effectively said above that [(s)he has] no sympathy for the three people who died today, or their friends and families.

Does every thread have to turn into a bitchfest? Three people have lost their lives yet still people are bickering over semantics. It’s pathetic really.

(S)he won't miss the individuals, nor their graffiti. S(he) is not obliged to have sympathy. (S)he is not directing vitriol at the family members.

The people who turn these threads into a "bitchfest" are those who feel that the views of others who take a more pragmatic, less sympathetic view of the world should be suppressed.

 

[Gostav]

As an ignorant foreigner l just say in many country of major Europe the simple rule is that if you are not authorized to cross (very popular in countryside) or walk on an open line and hit by a train, this is your responsibility even there will not be have so many police and forensic doctors spend time for body on the track, they just quick move the body and clean to restore train access. Don't say it is cruel.
For the UK the line are 100% close for public so the three people should be have 100% responsibility.

 

[bnm]

In what way is it incorrect? Unless they were track workers then they were committing a criminal offence of trespassing on the railways thus making them by definition criminals...

A criminal is someone convicted of a crime. Innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Fred Dinenage]

A criminal is someone convicted of a crime. Innocent until proven guilty.

Doesn’t make much difference, does it? Shouldn’t have been there, and I doubt the dead will be prosecuted. Forever innocent in your eyes?

 

[BRX]

(S)he won't miss the individuals, nor their graffiti. S(he) is not obliged to have sympathy. (S)he is not directing vitriol at the family members.

The people who turn these threads into a "bitchfest" are those who feel that the views of others who take a more pragmatic, less sympathetic view of the world should be suppressed.

I've no problem with people taking a pragmatic view, nor do I expect anyone to be obliged to express sympathy. In this case, though, someone is making a point of saying they have no sympathy.

The more directly offensive remarks seem to have been removed.

 

[takno]

As an ignorant foreigner l just say in many country of major Europe the simple rule is that if you are not authorized to cross (very popular in countryside) or walk on an open line and hit by a train, this is your responsibility even there will not be have so many police and forensic doctors spend time for body on the track, they just quick move the body and clean to restore train access. Don't say it is cruel.
For the UK the line are 100% close for public so the three people should be have 100% responsibility.

They are spending time establishing the facts. The most important of these would include who they are, whether they were killed before they got to the track and if not whether they went there of their own volition or were pushed. If you don't do that then you're at risk of providing a handy way to murder people or dispose of bodies. All of the necessary enquiries are done and the site is cleared as quickly as possible. None of this is anything to do with being cruel or otherwise.

 

[GW43125]

I didn't happen on the spur, though. It was on the main lines. Canterbury/Brixton spur is to the north, parallel at that point and a bit lower down.

I understood it to have occurred on the Catford Loop. I called it the "spur" as it's the lower speed route of the two (approach control from red to my knowledge).

 

[Bromley boy]

I've no problem with people taking a pragmatic view, nor do I expect anyone to be obliged to express sympathy. In this case, though, someone is making a point of saying they have no sympathy.

The more directly offensive remarks seem to have been removed.

It seems strange to me that anyone should be expected to express sympathy for dead trespassers they don’t know personally, who may or may not have been graffiti artists, but certainly should not have been on the tracks in the middle of the night.

Sympathy for most people is reserved for those they know personally rather than abstract internet discussions about the actions of strangers. What would be the point of me saying I feel sympathy? It would be completely meaningless and certainly wouldn’t change the results of what happened this morning.

 

[Gostav]

They are spending time establishing the facts. The most important of these would include who they are, whether they were killed before they got to the track and if not whether they went there of their own volition or were pushed. If you don't do that then you're at risk of providing a handy way to murder people or dispose of bodies. All of the necessary enquiries are done and the site is cleared as quickly as possible. None of this is anything to do with being cruel or otherwise.

Em, l‘m sorry, you are right.

 

[bnm]

Doesn’t make much difference, does it? Shouldn’t have been there, and I doubt the dead will be prosecuted. Forever innocent in your eyes?

Until such time as the coroner issues his/her inquest verdict.