Incident at Loughborough Junction (18/06)

[AlterEgo]

Do you spend much time hanging around crematoriums saying "actually ... " at the end of the eulogies and then following it with a torrent of abuse? How can you possibly get so angry about a family having the temerity to love their child? What on earth is wrong with you?

I dislike grafitti and trespassers as much as the next man, but what's the value in being so utterly vile about it?

Well said.

 

[All Line Rover]

It is very interesting to see the number of people who feel that the people who died are criminals and so therefore they deserved what they got. I have broken speed limits in my car - as have you - and so I am a criminal and presumably if I crashed and died you would have no sympathy, and nor should I offer you or your family any were it to happen to you... [W]hat logic allows those... on here to judge and condemn three young men?

I've not seen anyone express that view. I have, however, seen some express the view that these men, in taking a known and considerable risk, brought their deaths upon themselves and are not entitled to sympathy. It is consistent with this view that sympathy would not be extended to a deceased reckless driver, in either direction.

The logic behind condemning the behaviour of these men is that they were vandals and their vandalism is not appreciated. You appear to have a different view. I don't criticise your view. It is a view consistent with the logic behind the former view, unless you are using the words 'judge' and 'condemn' in a spiritual sense.

 

[theageofthetra]

I've not seen anyone express that view. I have, however, seen some express the view that these men, in taking a known and considerable risk, brought their deaths upon themselves and are not entitled to sympathy. It is consistent with this view that sympathy would not be extended to a deceased reckless driver, in either direction.

The logic behind comdemning the behaviour of these men is that they were vandals and their vandalism is not appreciated. You appear to have a different view. I don't criticise your view. It is a view consistent with the logic behind the former view, unless you are using the words 'judge' and 'condemn' in a spiritual sense.

Absolutely. Bored of the excuses. They learned the hard way. Only people I feel sorry for are those who had to deal with the aftermath of their poor lifestyle choices.

 

[Master29]

My sympathies are with their families. Hopefully this highlights the risks associated with playing on the railway amongst the general public, particularly those likely to do things like this in future.


I hate graffiti as much as the next person, but they're not in the same category here. People nick cable as part of organised crime, damaging/stealing very high value equipment to make money. People who graffiti are just kids/young adults up to no good, but not committing any egregious crime.

I`m willing to bet the likes of celebrity wanabees like Banksy do make money out of this so just as bad in that case.

 

[Bedpan]

Forgive me if I'm repeating somebody else's comments, I haven't read all the way through this thread. However, if any good were to come of tis tragic incident, it would be to discourage others to trespass onto the railway to cause graffiti damage. I suppose that having the urge to deface structures and other objects could be regarded as some kind of a mental addiction similar to gambling or being unable to stop computer gaming. I would want and expect the BBC to be sensitive when reporting the incident on the news but I have to say that I was shocked that they were almost allowing the graffiti attacks of the three lads, and the manner in which they lost their lives, to be glamourised. They were described as "budding artists" despite images of horribly defaced brickwork being shown (no reason to suspect that the defacing of the structures shown was done by them I hasten to add, but equally no examples of art attributable to them being shown). I was left feeling that an opportunity to discourage trespass of this type was lost. If only their lives had been spared, we would not have three grieving families, and there would be a good chance that following their recovery the three young men would have realised the danger they had put themselves in, and could have gone round schools etc encouraging others not to choose such a dangerous pastime.

 

[Marklund]

It is very interesting to see the number of people who feel that the people who died are criminals and so therefore they deserved what they got. I have broken speed limits in my car - as have you - and so I am a criminal and presumably if I crashed and died you would have no sympathy, and nor should I offer you or your family any were it to happen to you.

I dislike graffiti and understand the financial implications. It is wrong. But what logic allows those - presumably without sin - on here to judge and condemn three young men?

Twisted point of view really isn't it?

Breaking a speed limit doesn’t go on a criminal record...

Criminal damage on the other hand...

 

[Latecomer]

Breaking a speed limit doesn’t go on a criminal record...

Criminal damage on the other hand...

Yet speeding kills more than grafitti.

The lack of empathy in this thread I find alarming. I'm a train driver. I drive parallel to this section of line every other day and I looked down on it the day it happened. It's awful for drivers and those that have to clean up. An event like this will affect many other drivers - the one who first reported the scene, those who drove past the body bags and simply those other who drive on or near the route and feel it could be us.

BUT... I was young once. I did stupid things and to a certain extent lived life without fear of consequence. How many of us have had "one too many" and put ourselves in more danger than we should, how many of us can honestly say we've never broken the law, even if it's a minor misdemeanor? These guys didn't set out to die even if their actions were reckless. They didn't deserve to have their lives cut short even if they sadly were due to their own actions. Their families deserve respect and compassion, as do anyone else affected. As drivers we take on the role knowing the stats and the high probability of us being involved, but in general, with just the odd exception, I feel sad for the victims as well as for my fellow drivers.

 

[yorkie]

BUT... I was young once. I did stupid things and to a certain extent lived life without fear of consequence. How many of us have had "one too many" and put ourselves in more danger than we should, how many of us can honestly say we've never broken the law, even if it's a minor misdemeanor?

I do not agree that this is a "minor misdemeanour". Most young people who are considerably younger than 23 know that such behaviour/vandalism is not only putting their lives in danger but is extremely anti-social too.

I know 11 year olds who are far, far more mature and sensible to behave in such a way. They knew the dangers they were getting into. No, they did not deserve to die but they did understand it was a possible outcome.

They were not young kids who did not realise the dangers.

They didn't deserve to have their lives cut short even if they sadly were due to their own actions. ....

I do not think anyone is actually claiming they "deserved" to die?

 

[MCSHF007]

It was no-one's fault other than their own that they died. Self-inflicted demise.

 

[Latecomer]

I did not saying was a minor misdemeanor. Read again what I said. As one who encounters trespassers a few times a year I would hardly think so. I remain startled however that what ever the ''self-inflicted" nature of what they did there seems such little value of life. Most parents encounter profound disappointment in the actions of their sons at some point in their late teens/early twenties. These parents didn't have the chance of embarrassment or disappointment, they have funerals to arrange instead.

 

[BRX]

Good posts by latecomer.

 

[BRX]

There a good few posts that have been removed from this thread, that were of a "good riddance" kind of gist. And one that was a link to a youtube clip of someone trying to hide their laughter in response to someone having died.

I say this for the benefit of anyone reading through and wondering whether the dismay at the lack of empathy shown by some people has been exaggerated or overstated.

 

[TUC]

Whilst if you met one of the families affected in the street, common decency would mean you expressed your sympathies, that is very diffetent to public figures like Khan creating a sense of it being a matter of public sadness rather than a warning of what stupid behaviour like this can result in.

 

[swj99]

Good posts by latecomer.

I'll second that. And add this. Anyone who's never done anything bad, illegal or stupid, ever, carry on with the negative posts.

 

[LowLevel]

You can't enforce emotions upon people however maybe in circumstances like these people should keep them to themselves either way.

On my regular route to work I saw a little kitten running across a busy A road after a hairpin bend between a church building and a pub a number of times. Once or twice I saw cars having to hit the brakes to avoid it and it lived another day.

One day shortly afterwards I passed a little patch of squashed black fur on the road and didn't see the kitten again.

That saddened me because the animal lost it's life having no concept of what a car was and while learning to grow and follow it's instincts. It didn't want to die, on the contrary, you could say from the way it was bounding about it quite positively wanted to live.

I'm not sure why I don't feel anything for these 3 people but I can say that I don't. I hate graffiti as I know the time and resources it takes to sort out once it's destroyed windows etc and I've had colleagues on the receiving end of their aggression having been caught. I suppose the difference with the kitten is there is no missing understanding of risk.

 

[TUC]

I'll second that. And add this. Anyone who's never done anything bad, illegal or stupid, ever, carry on with the negative posts. The rest, wind your necks in eh ?

I think what's winding some people up is seeing public figures being so busy expressing sympathy to the point that they undermine messages about the risks of trespassing on the railway.

 

[Robertj21a]

What's winding some people up is the expectation that these 3 deserve sympathy when they were more than old enough to know better but, presumably, thought being 'clever' or 'cool' was more important than life itself.
They went out in the early hours, equipped with all the tools of their trade, on to a blatantly obvious, highly dangerous, area where they were forbidden to be.
I'm sure that there's enormous sympathy for the rail staff affected, the emergency services attending, and the victims families. It may be difficult to find much sympathy for those who became victims through their own actions.

 

[Bantamzen]

My thoughts are with the driver, who right now is probably wondering why they didn't notice the collision, could they have done anything to prevent it, maybe even can they sit in the cab of the train again? I have zero sympathy for the 3 men concerned I'm afraid. They went out into an obviously dangerous environment to deface property to satisfy their (I assume) narcissistic need to be seen in such a manner as tags. If they had been crossing the rails at an authorised point & some system had failed, or if they were forced onto the tracks through some perceived threat for example, then they would get my sympathy. But they knew exactly what thy were doing, took the risks regardless & fate played them this hand.

The equation is quite simple, if you don't want to be hit by a passing train, don't go onto the tracks or put any part of yourself into the path of one. This reduces the chances of a collision with one to as close to zero as scientifically possible. I just hope that the death of these three has at least some impact on at least some people who engage in this criminal activity.

 

[Antman]

Yet speeding kills more than grafitti.

The lack of empathy in this thread I find alarming. I'm a train driver. I drive parallel to this section of line every other day and I looked down on it the day it happened. It's awful for drivers and those that have to clean up. An event like this will affect many other drivers - the one who first reported the scene, those who drove past the body bags and simply those other who drive on or near the route and feel it could be us.

BUT... I was young once. I did stupid things and to a certain extent lived life without fear of consequence. How many of us have had "one too many" and put ourselves in more danger than we should, how many of us can honestly say we've never broken the law, even if it's a minor misdemeanor? These guys didn't set out to die even if their actions were reckless. They didn't deserve to have their lives cut short even if they sadly were due to their own actions. Their families deserve respect and compassion, as do anyone else affected. As drivers we take on the role knowing the stats and the high probability of us being involved, but in general, with just the odd exception, I feel sad for the victims as well as for my fellow drivers.

Very well summed up, I'm sure we've all done daft things before and most of us are fortunate enough to live to tell the story.

I feel sorry for everyone involved in this tragedy.

 

[Master29]

And so now this thread descends into moral outrage over things that weren`t actually said in the first place. Whenever this type of thing goes out people invariably say things like "thoughts with the families" or "my sympathies". In truth his just sounds a bit self righteous to me. It`s seems almost a look at me, I`m feeling my moral pain for these poor departed souls. Yes, I feel a sense of tragedy but not in the same way for someone I don`t know. That`s not callousness, just ordinary empathy. You can`t do it. It may have been different had I been there but I wasn`t along with just about everyone else on this thread. I don`t need to be told to get real or get a life because I don`t share a sense of keyboard sadness as to someone I don`t know dying. Bromleyboy is right. It isn`t the same thing.

 

[boxy321]

The TOC I work for have issued a staff briefing today stating they've had reports that three-pronged crowns are being grafittied across the railway in memory of the 'victims' with the usual security spiel about reporting suspicious activity to BTP etc. Clearly no lessons learnt by others who partake in vandalism. Tragic all round.

I had a feeling the types who do this would be out in force. In a similar vein to the 'Urbex' types, they worship the 'fallen': Idiots who climb half-built tower blocks when on drugs who then fall to their deaths doing a selfie.
There were quite a few 'trespassers on the railway' reports yesterday. Charles Darwin's book still holds firm.

 

[LeeLivery]

It's a massive shame 3 young lives have been lost. I don't think anyone here has said they deserved to die, suggesting that is awful. However, at the end of the day, they knew the risks and their luck ran out. I don't have sympathy for people willingly and needlessly risk their lives - whether that's reckless driving, climbing a pylon or trespassing on the railway. I do, however, have sympathy for the family and railway staff concerned.

Again it's a shame three young lives have been cut short. Hopefully, somewhere, someone has been put off playing on the tracks and risking their life. Unfortunately, this will happen again.

 

[bb21]

As this is just going around in circles, I think people can safely pack away their moral outrage/condemnation/high ground/whatever now as you have all had your say.