Incident at Wandsworth Common 07/08/16

[swt_passenger]

No mention on the RAIB website of them investigating it

Updating their website isn't the first thing they rush to do when there's an incident, you often don't see a bulletin for a few weeks.

 

[tsr]

No mention on the RAIB website of them investigating it

I am pretty sure they are (or were initially) investigating it, though.

I have no further details.

 

[Meadows]

It was interesting to watch the east coast HST leaving Dundee last night with a crew member leaning out of the window. Surely staff should be setting an example?

 

[Mojo]

RAIB surely?

No, he had a HM Railway Inspectorate Hi-vis on.

 

[TheEdge]

It was interesting to watch the east coast HST leaving Dundee last night with a crew member leaning out of the window. Surely staff should be setting an example?

Was it the guard observing the train leaving the platform as per proper safe dispatch procedure?

 

[Meadows]

Was it the guard observing the train leaving the platform as per proper safe dispatch procedure?

No, it was someone in coach L who had not long given me a cup of tea. I got off at Dundee and watched the train until it was out of sight and the person was lookingnoutnthe whole time.

 

[yorkie]

It was interesting to watch the east coast HST leaving Dundee last night with a crew member leaning out of the window. Surely staff should be setting an example?

That's got nothing to do with this incident described in this thread.

A member of train crew looking out observing the train out of the window is not unsafe; it is in fact safer in the view of many people because if they saw any incident unfold they would be able to alert the driver.

 

[najaB]

It was interesting to watch the east coast HST leaving Dundee last night with a crew member leaning out of the window. Surely staff should be setting an example?

A crew member who is familiar with the route, leaning out of the window at low speed isn't likely to be at as much risk as a member of the general public doing same while at high speed.

Ideal? Maybe not. Something to worry about? Not really.

 

[Meadows]

That's got nothing to do with this incident described in this thread.

A member of train crew looking out observing the train out of the window is not unsafe; it is in fact safer in the view of many people because if they saw any incident unfold they would be able to alert the driver.

A crew member who is familiar with the route, leaning out of the window at low speed isn't likely to be at as much risk as a member of the general public doing same while at high speed.

Ideal? Maybe not. Something to worry about? Not really.

I understand that, completely. My point was more that when members of the public (the same said members who have been slated throughout this thread for not knowing how to open a door) see staff leaning out it doesn't go anyway to making them realise that it IS dangerous!

 

[yorkie]

We will have to agree to disagree. Train crew looking out of the window at a station to see a train out is completely different to this incident, and arguably improves safety. It in no way signifies it's okay for passengers to lean out a long way while the train is between stations. The two are not in any way comparable.

 

[Meadows]

We will have to agree to disagree. Train crew looking out of the window at a station to see a train out is completely different to this incident, and arguably improves safety. It in no way signifies it's okay for passengers to lean out a long way while the train is between stations. The two are not in any way comparable.

Fair enough.

 

[QueensCurve]

We will have to agree to disagree. Train crew looking out of the window at a station to see a train out is completely different to this incident, and arguably improves safety. It in no way signifies it's okay for passengers to lean out a long way while the train is between stations. The two are not in any way comparable.

But do staff have specific training on the safety of this?

My [untrained] procedure is place head out slowly and cautiously facing the direction of travel looking for obstructions and ready to withdraw at a moments' notice. Extending head no further than necessary.

 

[Carlisle]

That's got nothing to do with this incident described in this thread.

A member of train crew looking out observing the train out of the window is not unsafe; it is in fact safer in the view of many people because if they saw any incident unfold they would be able to alert the driver.

I believe over the years there were a number of accidents on the Underground where guards were injured by loking out of their open local door as the train entered the tube tunnel

 

[QueensCurve]

I believe over the years there were a number of accidents on the Underground where guards were injured by loking out of their open local door as the train entered the tube tunnel

I understand that the 1967 Victoria Line stock had an interlock on the driver's window so the train could not start if it was open.

 

[bramling]

I believe over the years there were a number of accidents on the Underground where guards were injured by loking out of their open local door as the train entered the tube tunnel

There was certainly an incident at Hendon Central, such that a sign saying "Danger tunnel mouth" (IIRC) was placed on the platform. The sign may even still be there.

It should be noted that the tunnel mouth here is some distance in advance of the platform, so there wouldn't be any work-related reason for the guard to have been leaning out at that point. Various suggestions have been speculated as to why the guard may have been looking out at that point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I understand that the 1967 Victoria Line stock had an interlock on the driver's window so the train could not start if it was open.

Correct. The Bakerloo Line's 1972 stock also has this. Originally the design allowed the window to be open a small distance, however since cab air conditioning was installed it was modified so the window must be fully closed.

However, the interlock also has a (non-sealed) cut-out switch, and it's certainly accepted practice for this switch to be used basically whenever the driver wants. Same applies for the cab door interlock on other stocks where provided. Of course were an incident to happen, someone would doubtlessly ask why the switch was operated.

 

[Zoidberg]

The RAIB has announced that it is investigating. Extract from ...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fatal-accident-balham

At around 17:25 on Sunday 7 August 2016, a passenger travelling on a train from Gatwick Airport to London Victoria struck his head on a signal gantry near Balham. The train was travelling at about 60 mph (96 km/h) and he sustained fatal injuries.

The train was the 17:05 Gatwick Express service, formed of a five-coach class 442 electric multiple unit. Witness evidence indicates that the passenger was standing at a door in the third coach on the side facing away from the other railway tracks. This door, which is intended for the use of the train’s guard and opens inwards, has an opening droplight. There is a notice above the window “Do not lean out of window when train is moving”.

 

[talltim]

After the accident, RAIB measured the distance between the train, standing on the up fast line, and the post of the signal gantry. We found that, at the height of the middle of the droplight, this distance was around 260 mm (10.25 inches).

Not such a small clearance as has been speculated

 

[QueensCurve]

Not such a small clearance as has been speculated

Still smaller than a head.

Any tendancy to make recommendation to keep signal gantries wider, as I would say it should have been when installed, will be negated by the fact that, in Britain, droplights are moribund.

 

[BRX]

260mm is not much at all, really.

 

[JonathanH]

I noticed at the weekend that 442s are running with a taped X across the droplight window on the corridor side of the motor coach. Have the droplight windows been locked in the up position?

 

[Barn]

Not such a small clearance as has been speculated

I think quite a few people would be suprised at how small 26cm is (less than a standard school ruler). It goes to show that you can be in real trouble without needing to do any sort of exaggerated lean out from the waist - a very slight lean of the head can be enough. Scary.

 

[AlterEgo]

I noticed at the weekend that 442s are running with a taped X across the droplight window on the corridor side of the motor coach. Have the droplight windows been locked in the up position?

Well, according to various posters upthread, this would have been impossible, undesirable, RAIB wouldn't have been interested, etc etc.

:roll:

 

[najaB]

Well, according to various posters upthread, this would have been impossible, undesirable, RAIB wouldn't have been interested, etc etc.

I don't think anybody said it was impossible to lock the windows out of use, and the fact that it has been done doesn't mean that it's not undesirable - it's not unknown for less-than-optimal rules to be imposed.

As to the RAIB being uninterested, the only post I can see was this one which was a question rather than a statement.

 

[superkev]

Not such a small clearance as has been speculated

Is 250mm within allowed tolerance.
K

 

[Domh245]

Is 250mm within allowed tolerance.

250mm, whilst a relatively small distance, would be a pretty big distance in terms of untoward suspension movement, so I'd wager that it is entirely within tolerance.

(I would assume that they measured it with the droplight at it's closest position to the gantry, and not at it's furthest)

 

[physics34]

Still smaller than a head.

Any tendancy to make recommendation to keep signal gantries wider, as I would it should have been when installed, will be negated by the fact that, in Britain, droplights are moribund.

It's very close. You can see a mark on the signal gantry in question. Gives me chills every time I pass it.

 

[theironroad]

This was a tragic accident and he sounded like a great guy.

However, has any train ever come into contact with the gantry?

If not, I'd suggest the clearances are ok, but obviously we will have to wait a while for the full raib report.

I'm guessing the amount of rolling stock with passenger drop light windows must be under 10% and declining further over the next few years, so however tragic this incident was, I hope there is not a knee jerk reaction. What happens to heritage charter stock with drop lights is where there may be change....

 

[physics34]

This was a tragic accident and he sounded like a great guy.

However, has any train ever come into contact with the gantry?

If not, I'd suggest the clearances are ok, but obviously we will have to wait a while for the full raib report.

I'm guessing the amount of rolling stock with passenger drop light windows must be under 10% and declining further over the next few years, so however tragic this incident was, I hope there is not a knee jerk reaction. What happens to heritage charter stock with drop lights is where there may be change....

Well obviously this line was converted by slam door stock for many a year and I'm not sure I remember hearing about an incident at this location before. Saying that, many units had window bars and restricted droplights.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

250mm, whilst a relatively small distance, would be a pretty big distance in terms of untoward suspension movement, so I'd wager that it is entirely within tolerance.

(I would assume that they measured it with the droplight at it's closest position to the gantry, and not at it's furthest)

It's not helped by the fact it's on a sharp curve and the track cants quite alot

 

[yorksrob]

There was mention of the possibility of sealing all train droplights in The Times as a result of this incident. If so, it would be an overreaction to a tragic, but extremely rare accident in my opinion.

 

[Flamingo]

There was mention of the possibility of sealing all train droplights in The Times as a result of this incident. If so, it would be an overreaction to a tragic, but extremely rare accident in my opinion.

That will make it somewhat interesting when working a HST...