Incident involving 2G14 (0706 from Guildford) at Clapham Jn on 18/08

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by EAD, 18 Aug 2015.

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  1. EAD

    EAD Member

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    Hello all,

    First off I appreciate some may be sensitive about this posting. I am happy to respect any MOD decisions, but reflecting on what happened this morning I see it as an interesting operational event in my daily commute!

    I wonder if anyone can confirm what happened as we ran into P10 at CLJ? I was in the third carriage and noticed a heavy brake application and sure enough we came grinding to a rapid halt with only a few carriages on the platform.

    It seemed like a TPWS over-speed or other TPWS unsolicited brake demand. Felt sorry for the crew as at the height of the rush the driver had to reset and get clearance to proceed from the signaler while people on the platform stared on. Took about 10 mins in total to sort as real traintimes shows. The guard did a good job and while the description clearly did not refer to the possibility of TPWS over-speed, she did use the phrase unsolicited break application and the need for the driver to contact the signaler - of course most on the train could not understand why this should be so.

    Anyhow - well done to all concerned and in particular the guard for tactfully managing to convey what was going while waiting clearance to proceed without worrying passengers with any mention of safety systems, etc.

    EAD
     
    Last edited: 20 Aug 2015
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  3. Islineclear3_1

    Islineclear3_1 Established Member

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    Platform 10 is the Waterloo-bound platform and if your train was running-in, I doubt it was anything to do with a signal overrun. Possibly somebody fell on the track from the platform...?
     
  4. Domh245

    Domh245 Established Member

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    I think the OP was referring to a potential OSS from a driver approaching a signal at danger, which is equally plausible during the rush hour.
     
  5. CatfordCat

    CatfordCat Member

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    Part of my commute is Clapham Junction - Wimbledon, and I got caught up in the aftermath of this.

    For what it's worth, this was being announced as being due to an earlier defective train, or words to that effect, rather than 'operating difficulties' or anything like that.
     
  6. ComUtoR

    ComUtoR Established Member

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    TPWS activation's must be reported. This is to determine the cause of the activation. It goes without saying that the cause must be identified before the train continues because of the obvious safety risk.

    I don't know P10 and certainly don't sign that route but IF the starter signal was at red then potentially it was a missed AWS. Unsolicited brake applications are more common than you think and it may have been something simple or a unit fault.

    @robert. "unsolicited" wouldn't be passenger related. If someone fell onto the track then the Driver would apply the emergency brake. Ergo, deliberate and not 'unsolicited'
     
  7. Matt Taylor

    Matt Taylor Established Member

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    There are no TPWS grids on the approach to p10 at Clapham.
     
  8. causton

    causton Established Member

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    Sounds more like train fault (lost interlock is one of the very many possibilities) than anything to do with being the driver's fault!
     
  9. Dieseldriver

    Dieseldriver Member

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    From the location I doubt it was TPWS. Could have been AWS, DSD, accidental emergency brake application, delibrate emergency brake application (trespasser, person in unsafe position, receiving an emergency stop message on the radio etc). It could also have been a phantom brake application, a fault causing an emergency brake application, a passcom, certain MCBs tripping. There are many reasons it could have occurred but nice to see you automatically assume it must have been the driver tripping a set of grids. Just because you are aware that TPWS exists, it doesn't mean that is the only cause of something like this. Touch wood I have never had a TPWS activation, however, my trains have come up in a heap plenty of times for many other reasons. Would have been pretty annoyed to have someone like you spouting off about how it much be a TPWS activation. Can you tell me where you work so I can write about it on an Internet forum and blame your profession of wrong doing with no proof/reason.
     
  10. 455driver

    455driver Veteran Member

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    It seems my posts are not welcome!
     
    Last edited: 19 Aug 2015
  11. greatkingrat

    greatkingrat Established Member

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    Someone ought to tell Network Rail then as they said it was a TPWS activation.
     
  12. Peter Mugridge

    Peter Mugridge Established Member

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    Indeed - I well remember one trip on a Gatwick Express when they were newly introduced ( the original 73s + Mk2s ) and the brake pipe decided to separate just as the train was passing through - ironically - Clapham Junction.

    That was the hardest stop I've ever experienced in any train, much harder even than the full emergency stop from 186mph that I once experienced on a TGV Atlantique set between Montparnasse and Le Mans!
     
  13. Deepgreen

    Deepgreen Established Member

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    The OP wrote that it SEEMED like a TPWS issue - not that he knew it was, or even that he necessarily assumed it was. Nowhere did he state or imply driver error - so why the extreme reaction? Note too that the OP praised all concerned, which would include the driver - doesn't seem like blame or malice to me!
     
  14. EAD

    EAD Member

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    Hello again everyone. First of all, thank you for those with helpful input.

    I have to say I am disappointed in the way some people have seen fit to get very defensive: 1) I made clear there may be some sensitivity on the topic based on an individual's subjective view; and 2) I never came to a firm conclusion: indeed the whole point of my question was if anyone knew what had caused it.

    Turning to the comments:

    Matt Taylor - thanks for clarifying there are no TPWS grids on P10: I was thinking that I don't recall seeing them.

    To all - yes as we ran in P10 at CLJ and stopped well short of starter signal by the application.

    Dieseldriver and 455driver - I respect your posts on the forum and insight when looking on here. I read plenty of rubbish about my own profession, but you have both chosen to react vehemently to what I wrote. I am aware there are a number of reasons why this could have happened and I asked if anyone knew what had happened. I have had plenty of full break incidents in journeys in the UK and abroad for a number of reasons, just not one on my commute through CLJ P10. Examples include trespass, Indusi breakcurve magnet in Germany, a couple of full trip outs on Eurostars, etc.

    I did not say it was TPWS and could be nothing else - I raised the question of whether it was and given no grids for OSS it can't be. To start rounding on me is unfair and unjustified. More troubling is the fact you decide to make assumptions about me and my knowledge which is precisely what you essentially accuse me of.

    So to conclude thanks to Deepgreen as indeed I was merely asking. I offered the MODs to pull it if needed. My initial, more worrying for all concerned thought was someone jumped, but as that was quickly ruled out by the train crew I wondered re TPWS and there the only reason I chose that was because of where the application was.

    Let's leave it there - if you wanted to push someone off forum you are going the correct way about it. Compared to some of the rubbish posted on here I really think the reaction and level of argument leveled against me is unjustified.

    So, if after that anyone feels able in a public forum to tell me what did happen I am all ears. Otherwise I will ask to have this removed by the Mods.
     
  15. greatkingrat

    greatkingrat Established Member

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    The official reason from Network Rail:

    At 0802 the driver of 2G14, HY, 0706 Guildford – London Waterloo, reported that the TPWS Overspeed Sensor had activated on the approach to W120 signal, which was displaying a red aspect on the Up Main Slow line at Clapham Junction whilst travelling at approximately 45mph with unit 455703. The OSS is set to intervene at 41.5mph.
     
  16. TEW

    TEW Established Member

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    It will, as I witnessed the other night when a 455+456+456 combo came grinding to a halt half way down the platform after losing interlock.
     
  17. 455driver

    455driver Veteran Member

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    It seems my posts are not welcome!
     
    Last edited: 19 Aug 2015
  18. Sacro

    Sacro Member

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    Don't thank him, he's wrong! :roll:
     
  19. EAD

    EAD Member

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    Thanks Sacro - if what was posted from the NR log is true then that is the case.
     
  20. wimbledonpete

    wimbledonpete Member

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    Strangely I was on a train this week that approached Clapham Junction fast, slowed slightly for platform 10 as usual (non-stop train) but then braked quite hard halfway down the platform, although didn't come to a stand. Then accelerated again out of the station. Thought it was odd at the time.
     
  21. HarleyDavidson

    HarleyDavidson Established Member

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    There was a 20mph TSR on the UMS at Clapham until Tuesday night, so if you were on the "Raynes Park Flyer" (which is anything but) which is last stop Earlsfield, that's what you might have experienced.
     
    Last edited: 20 Aug 2015
  22. Skimpot flyer

    Skimpot flyer Member

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    She didn't mention safety systems etc, as the driver had merely dropped his flask and packet of sandwiches, earlier than he had planned, before his break. What caused the brakes to come on, who knows ?
    :D
     
  23. Deepgreen

    Deepgreen Established Member

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    I don't belong to many forums but I imagine they are all the same in that there will always be some who almost invariably respond defensively or aggressively. You soon get to know them. The trick is to filter them out and persevere with the reasonable ones. My personal rule is to try to converse on line as I would face-to-face.
     
  24. Dieseldriver

    Dieseldriver Member

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    I have conversed on here as I would have face to face. I have no issue with someone curious about the incident but what gets my back up is the immediate inference that it was a TPWS activation. There are plenty of things that can cause an emergency brake application and a passenger (or even driver travelling pass) in the train would not be able to actually know what had caused it.
    In the last few years, I have personally either initiated an emergency brake application or have been at the controls of a train which has dumped the brakes on me about 25 - 30 times, none of them being a TPWS activation. What got my back up was the automatic assumption that it must be driver error, how many of my passengers have thought the same thing? As drivers, we are under enough pressure at work as it is without members of the public automatically thinking the worst of us every time something happens.
     
  25. Deepgreen

    Deepgreen Established Member

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    Well, as we have established, the OP simply said it seemed like TPWS, with no claim or assumption made whatsoever about driver blame (quite the opposite in fact, as he praised all involved). As it turns out NR have apparently said it was TPWS, although we only have that claim via this thread. If you had read the original post properly, there should have been no reason to have "got my back up", hence my comment about over-defensiveness.
     
    Last edited: 20 Aug 2015
  26. Dieseldriver

    Dieseldriver Member

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    Even as a qualified driver, if I was sat in a train, I would not be able to tell the difference between a TPWS activation, passcom, emergency brake application, brake control MCB tripping etc. I therefore don't understand how a regular punter could state that a brake application seems like a TPWS activation? What I was trying to point out in my post is that there are many many reasons why a train could come up in a heap, TPWS is just one of them.
     
  27. andrewkeith5

    andrewkeith5 Member

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    Because as has been pointed out many times before, the OP was using a TPWS application as a descriptor of how he felt the incident occurred. He was describing the way in which the train appeared to stop, which as you so repeatedly point out is a valid descriptor for numerous potential options.

    The issue everyone has is that you immediately jumped to assuming that because someone used a TPWS activation to describe something, you immediately appeared to assume that the professional integrity of all train drivers everywhere was being roundly attacked - which it wasn't. You could have chosen to politely point out that perhaps TPWS activation wasn't necessarily the best way of describing the way in which the incident occurred, but you instead chose to break immediately into full attack mode. Your original post would commonly be described as an overreaction.

    EDIT: As it turns out, it was actually the most accurate possible descriptor that could have been chosen anyway...
     
    Last edited: 20 Aug 2015
  28. Pumbaa

    Pumbaa Established Member

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    It was a TPWS activation, overspeed. I was on duty that morning and dealt with the incident. All cleaned up quickly and with as little fuss as possible.
     
  29. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    I can kind of see why a professional driver might get a bit defensive as a TPWS activation would commonly be caused by some error on part of the driver, where if another descriptor had been used e.g. 'it felt like the brake pipe broke' it wouldn't carry the same connotations.

    It's a bit like someone saying "You wife's face looks like you hit her" to mean that she has a black eye.
     
  30. 455driver

    455driver Veteran Member

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    So putting the word 'seemed' in there makes it alright does it! :roll:

    If that is the case why is it that my post where I said the OP seemed to be a <oopsy> was quickly deleted and I received some 'advice' from a MOD about my posting style?
     
  31. EAD

    EAD Member

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    Evening all,

    Perhaps it is best for all if we now have this thread locked? I am genuinely glad both drivers (455 and Diesel) have come back to thread.

    I appreciate it is potentially sensitive as a topic - hence I offered for it to be pulled if it was felt too sensitive. Diesel - I am grateful for the clarification of what got your back up: I was not pointing the finger at the driver at all, but I appreciate that many people would associate someone stating TPWS over-speed as doing that.

    Of course any number of factors could have caused us to come to stop in heap as has been pointed out. So, why did I mention TPWS? Because I mulled it over and absent train fault or another reason (which I accept it could have been), the location at which it happened in my mind pointed to that - I travel that way every work day and based on signal location, and where it was triggered and we ended up at a stand that pointed me in that direction.

    Someone will no doubt tell me I seem to be a "prat" on that basis - I can live with that.

    Finally - and this does go to underlining professionalism: as I said both driver and guard dealt with it very well and kept those on board very well informed.
     
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